| Kai Klaas 02/13/06 19:19 Modified: 02/13/06 20:07 Read: 1583 times Germany Msg Score: +2 +1 Informative +1 Good Answer/Helpful |
#109891 - Let the statistics be your friend... Responding to: Prahlad J. Purohit's previous message |
I want to build a capacitance meter that can measure capacitances of my preicion polypropelene capacitors. The targeted measurement accuracy is 0.1% or better. This is rather simple if you have a large number of these precision caps, best from many different sources. The idea behind is, that if you have a large number of these caps, then the cap values will follow the Gaussian distribution curve and you can find a reference cap, by a suited methode: Build the following cirucit: Choose Ra = 2k2, Rb = 1k8 +1k_cermet_trimmer, C2 = 10nF/foil and take a CMOS555. Take the best parts you can find, means at least 1% metal film resistors and multi-turn cermet trimmer (best from Burns). Now assume that you want to measure 47nF FKP2 caps from WIMA, which you can buy with +-1% tolerance. If you insert an ideal cap without manufacturing tolerances, then the above circuit, properly calibrated of course, will deliver a frequency of exactly 4700Hz, representing a capacitance of 47.00nF. Only thing to do is to measure the frequency at output of ICM7555 by a suited frequency meter. Often, multimeters contain such a frequency meter. How to calibrate this circuit? Assume you have a large number of these caps. Then measure each capacitance with above circuit and notate the reading of frequency meter. It doesn't matter, that the circuit isn't still calibrated. Important is only that you don't change the setting of cermet trimmer during this procedure. Sort all the caps and notate the readings, so that you can find each of the caps later. After a while you will hopefully see that all the values differ by up to +-1%. If you have a very large number, then you can take the average of all the readings. Now, choose one of the caps in your list, which's reading is equal to the taken average. This cap is then your reference cap. Normally, you will have not only one cap which hits the average, but a certain number of them. Put them into a box and handle them carefully. All these caps are reference caps. Now take one of these reference caps, put it into the circuit (sockets for fast changes prefered) and calibrate the cermet trimmer for a reading of exactly 4700Hz. If you don't have a very large number of these caps, then you can look for the highest and lowest reading of the list. Taking the average of both will allow you to find the reference cap then. Of course, with this methode you will probably not find the exact reference value, because the number of caps might be too little. So, try to buy a real large number of these caps (from many different sources!), so that the center of the according Gaussian distribution curve will hit the ideal value. Again, this methode makes only sense if you have a large number of these caps. Also, they must come from many different sources! Don't take caps from the same production lot. These don't differ enough. With a bit luck you can find a reference cap with an error of less than about +-0.2%. When using a very large number then the error becomes smaller and smaller. If you start a new measurement, then always take one of your reference caps and calibrate the circuit first. Afterwards you can measure. Take care, caps show a certain temperature drift. So, don't touch them too long with your fingers. If the measurement lasts longer, then recalibrate the circuit by the help of one of your reference caps (also the ICM7555 shows a temperature drift!). After some months you will find, that your reference caps which earlier showed same reading tend to differ a bit. This is caused by long term drift, which is up to +-0.3% in two years at 40°C. Also, your circuit should be well shielded against hum. Kai |
| Topic | Author | Date |
| Measuring capacitance very precisely. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/13/06 09:06 |
| "I want the best money can buy, but I do | Erik Malund | 02/13/06 09:24 |
| In this specific case I disagree. | Kalpak Dabir | 02/13/06 11:22 |
| Bridge? | Andy Neil | 02/13/06 09:31 |
| Bridge! | Oliver Sedlacek | 02/13/06 09:58 |
| AC bridge | Steve M. Taylor | 02/13/06 14:19 |
| Error Sources | Bruce Bailey | 02/13/06 15:04 |
| Blumlein Bridge | Steve M. Taylor | 02/13/06 16:59 |
| Blumlein Bridre. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/14/06 22:11 |
| Bridge excitation | Oliver Sedlacek | 02/15/06 03:18 |
| Blumlein | Ian Bell | 02/16/06 03:21 |
| Let the statistics be your friend... | Kai Klaas | 02/13/06 19:19 |
| frequency meter | Christian Kleiber | 02/14/06 07:30 |
| Product as a Transfer Standard | Bruce Bailey | 02/14/06 09:31 |
| Distributor of your confidence | Kai Klaas | 02/22/06 07:17 |
| Suppliers like that ... | Bruce Bailey | 02/22/06 07:58 |
| why blame the suppliers | Erik Malund | 02/22/06 08:06 |
| Not at all | Kai Klaas | 02/22/06 10:08 |
| Hah! | Bruce Bailey | 02/22/06 10:28 |
| Statistics for reference determination. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/15/06 00:02 |
| You got it! | Kai Klaas | 02/15/06 07:42 |
| questions | Erik Malund | 02/15/06 06:24 |
| he wants to select to 0.1% from 1% stock | Terry Lingle | 02/15/06 07:13 |
| that is a bad idea | Erik Malund | 02/15/06 07:54 |
| Hmm | Kai Klaas | 02/15/06 08:10 |
| That's a good way | Kai Klaas | 02/15/06 07:48 |
| posts cross timed | Erik Malund | 02/15/06 08:04 |
| It makes sense to select them | Kai Klaas | 02/15/06 08:18 |
| No sorting of Caps. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/15/06 08:16 |
| then, are you not using the wrong approa | Erik Malund | 02/15/06 09:27 |
| Time constant | Kai Klaas | 02/15/06 10:16 |
| Re: Eliminate cap sorting | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/15/06 22:06 |
| Example | Steve M. Taylor | 02/16/06 02:57 |
| you do not need precision, you need rate | Erik Malund | 02/16/06 06:36 |
| Would it not be easier the other way? | Kalpak Dabir | 02/15/06 10:35 |
| Difficult | Kai Klaas | 02/15/06 11:45 |
| Yes Digital Difficult. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/15/06 21:58 |
| I think the point has been missed again. | Jez Smith | 02/16/06 07:54 |
| Demo ? | Steve M. Taylor | 02/16/06 09:28 |
| Difficult to change now. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/16/06 09:48 |
| Don't worry | Kai Klaas | 02/16/06 09:59 |
| Re: Dont Worry. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/17/06 08:07 |
| How to calibrate an integrator? | Kai Klaas | 02/19/06 13:29 |
| Re: How to calib. an integratrator. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/19/06 21:59 |
| Answers | Kai Klaas | 02/20/06 06:33 |
| 256Hz too fast. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/20/06 02:51 |
| Integrator and RMS using DSP | Kalpak Dabir | 02/20/06 03:17 |
| Whats available easily. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/20/06 09:38 |
| dsPIC30F2010 | Kalpak Dabir | 02/20/06 09:49 |
| 500 kSPS | Mahmood Elnasser | 03/16/06 09:43 |
| This little PICcy got eaten, the SILabs | Erik Malund | 03/16/06 10:33 |
| Is that useful? | Kalpak Dabir | 03/19/06 07:09 |
| Planning to use dspic. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/19/06 07:35 |
| Speed ? | Steve M. Taylor | 03/19/06 07:55 |
| But for what purpose? | Kalpak Dabir | 03/19/06 11:36 |
| MAC | Steve M. Taylor | 03/19/06 12:16 |
| it is amazing | Erik Malund | 03/20/06 07:41 |
| Here is the analysis | Kalpak Dabir | 03/20/06 09:36 |
| the content, not the words | Erik Malund | 03/20/06 10:54 |
| analysis please | Kalpak Dabir | 03/20/06 11:38 |
| since you, just like me, have no idea ab | Erik Malund | 03/20/06 13:12 |
| Ah! The Horatio quote version 2! | Kalpak Dabir | 03/20/06 19:30 |
| again, you focus on words, not content | Erik Malund | 03/21/06 06:45 |
| Which is why I asked... | Kalpak Dabir | 03/21/06 11:34 |
| If what you are saying is that I can not | Erik Malund | 03/21/06 12:29 |
| I had to. | Steve M. Taylor | 03/21/06 13:52 |
| You said it! | Kalpak Dabir | 03/22/06 00:07 |
| Analog integrator | Kai Klaas | 03/20/06 18:48 |
| How do you calculate the RMS? | Kai Klaas | 02/20/06 06:48 |
| RMS in detail. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/20/06 09:35 |
| Out of interest. | Steve M. Taylor | 02/20/06 11:53 |
| wot you want a RMS demo,steve?? | Jez Smith | 02/21/06 04:52 |
| FIXED point | Steve M. Taylor | 02/21/06 11:13 |
| fixed point is almost as bad | Jez Smith | 02/21/06 14:16 |
| Alternative | Kai Klaas | 02/20/06 13:30 |
| NCO again | Steve M. Taylor | 02/20/06 16:17 |
| Would be nice | Kai Klaas | 02/22/06 06:45 |
| Timer2 of 89C52 | Kalpak Dabir | 02/22/06 06:58 |
| clever | Steve M. Taylor | 02/22/06 08:38 |
| Oops! Incomplete statement | Kalpak Dabir | 02/22/06 10:11 |
| Clock feedthrough | Kai Klaas | 02/22/06 10:38 |
| Maxim App note | Steve M. Taylor | 02/22/06 10:51 |
| Nice links, thanks! | Kai Klaas | 02/22/06 10:54 |
| AD9832 | Steve M. Taylor | 02/22/06 14:13 |
| sine vawe | Erik Malund | 02/24/06 11:35 |
| Re: Alternative. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/20/06 22:34 |
| Will work | Kai Klaas | 02/21/06 05:49 |
| Re: 64Hz Gain 1.126. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/21/06 03:41 |
| Maximum input voltage range | Kai Klaas | 02/21/06 06:17 |
| Re: Max. Input voltage Range. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/22/06 04:58 |
| You have got it | Kai Klaas | 02/22/06 06:44 |
| indeed, and | Erik Malund | 02/22/06 07:44 |
| Is the resistor in gnd really needed. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/22/06 08:11 |
| Negligible with CMOS Opamps | Kai Klaas | 02/22/06 09:16 |
| Re: Negligible with CMOS Opamps. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/24/06 03:08 |
| Most opamp datasheet do specify | Kalpak Dabir | 02/24/06 07:53 |
| Input Bias Current | Steve M. Taylor | 02/24/06 09:55 |
| Impedance matching | Kai Klaas | 02/24/06 20:00 |
| Re: Impedence Matching. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/24/06 21:33 |
| yess balancing is required and to that.. | Abhishek Singh | 02/22/06 19:09 |
| 4u7 Cap polarity and type. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/23/06 03:57 |
| Foil caps are needed | Kai Klaas | 02/23/06 06:04 |
| Available Capacitors. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/07/06 01:31 |
| This one | Kai Klaas | 03/07/06 07:39 |
| What are these MK equivalents | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/07/06 07:51 |
| MKT, MKP, MKC, KT, KP, KC,... | Kai Klaas | 03/07/06 20:14 |
| Thanks Kai, | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/08/06 06:17 |
| Ground Planes. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/09/06 08:11 |
| Have you had problems? | Kai Klaas | 03/09/06 08:16 |
| RE: Have you had problems. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/09/06 08:19 |
| Keep the oscillator away from output | Kai Klaas | 03/09/06 08:52 |
| Board Layouts. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/09/06 09:53 |
| Recommendations | Kai Klaas | 03/09/06 17:55 |
| Corrected Board | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/10/06 01:59 |
| I try to draw it for you | Kai Klaas | 03/10/06 06:40 |
| RE: I try to draw it. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/11/06 08:28 |
| Here it is | Kai Klaas | 03/11/06 08:49 |
| RE: Corrected Ver 2.0 | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/12/06 01:44 |
| Answers | Kai Klaas | 03/13/06 06:51 |
| Re: Corrected Ver. 3.0 | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/14/06 03:30 |
| Some hints | Kai Klaas | 03/16/06 09:02 |
| Re: I am in trouble. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/16/06 09:35 |
| Sorry! | Kai Klaas | 03/16/06 09:44 |
| Is this schematic correct. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/16/06 09:45 |
| Corrections | Kai Klaas | 03/16/06 10:04 |
| Re: Correction. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/16/06 10:17 |
| Mylars will do | Kai Klaas | 03/16/06 18:49 |
| Corrected Board and schematics Ver 4.0 | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/19/06 01:44 |
| Why not doing it like this? | Kai Klaas | 03/19/06 19:47 |
| Re: Corrected boards ver 5.0 | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/20/06 03:43 |
| Some hints | Kai Klaas | 03/20/06 11:50 |
| Corrected board ver: 6.0 | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/21/06 07:29 |
| Please remove it... | Kai Klaas | 03/21/06 07:49 |
| Yes removed Gnd plane from mount hole. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/21/06 08:00 |
| Looks good now | Kai Klaas | 03/21/06 08:15 |
| Does than mean Green signal. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/21/06 08:16 |
| Yes | Kai Klaas | 03/21/06 08:41 |
| Thanks Kai. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/21/06 19:44 |
| trying to understand that | Abhishek Singh | 03/13/06 21:52 |
| DC impedance of ground plane | Kai Klaas | 03/16/06 09:35 |
| bipolar swings how and where? | Abhishek Singh | 03/09/06 09:27 |
| Here | Kai Klaas | 03/09/06 09:30 |
| explain a bit please | Abhishek Singh | 03/09/06 10:19 |
| Explaination | Kai Klaas | 03/09/06 10:55 |
| Me ? | Steve M. Taylor | 02/16/06 10:20 |
| Exactly!! | Kai Klaas | 02/16/06 09:57 |
| as requested a demo.....,sort of | Jez Smith | 02/16/06 13:47 |
| simulation results of the demo...sort of | Jez Smith | 02/16/06 23:53 |
| Thanks Jez. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 02/17/06 08:01 |
| Changing Q7 to Q9. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 03/16/06 10:23 |
| AD7142/AD7745 | Aubrey Kagan | 04/10/06 07:26 |
| Only good for a few pF | Kai Klaas | 04/10/06 09:11 |
| My apologies | Aubrey Kagan | 04/10/06 09:26 |
| No need to apologize! | Kai Klaas | 04/10/06 10:43 |
| Nice part | Steve M. Taylor | 04/10/06 13:23 |
| Built Precision Sine Wave Generator. | Prahlad J. Purohit | 04/11/06 08:38 |
Good luck | Kai Klaas | 04/11/06 09:10 |



