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Kai Klaas
08/20/06 22:46
Modified:
  08/20/06 23:03

Read: 6031 times
Germany


 
Msg Score: +1
 +1 Good Answer/Helpful
#122673 - An alternative to Atmels ISP CABLE
Responding to: Kai Klaas's previous message
If one has a look at the original schematic of Atmel's "IPS cable", which I recall here partially





one can see, that a 74VHC244 is used to buffer the ISP programming signals emitted by the printer port. The circuit looks simple, but is not! The presence of D1 at the pull-ups should ring a bell...

Why cannot a simple 74HC244 or else be used instead of this 74VHC244?
CMOS chips usually contain a protection circuitry at their inputs to prevent damage caused by overvoltage, from ESD, for instance, or resulting from overshots caused by improper termination of transmission lines, etc. This protection circuit looks like that, or similar:





One can see, that a protection diode is connected from each input to Vcc.

Now remember, the "ISP cable", means the above buffer circuitry, is connected to the target micro to be programmed and is also powered by the micro's Vcc. How to proceed, when the programming is done and the micro shall be removed from the "ISP cable"? Simply disconnecting the cable? No! This could produce unsane togglings at the ISP programming lines, which could badly affect the programming, either by destroying parts of the just programmed code or by clearing the lock bits.

But how to terminate the programming?
Only by turning-off Vcc of micro and THEN disconnecting the cable. AND: During the power-off no changes of logic states at the ISP programming lines must occur!!! Also, do never power-on and power-off the micro with an inactive reset line!!! During power-on and power-off the reset line must always be logic high!

But how to do this with a simple 74HC244, or similar, which contains these protection diodes from inputs to Vcc? A power down of Vcc would not have the intended effect, because any high potential being emitted from one of the printer port lines would still power the micro! Because it will keep Vcc at high potential due to the action of protection diodes!

Only a buffer that does NOT contain these protection diodes from inputs to Vcc will work here. And that's just what the 74VHC244 provides! It's a buffer which is 5V tolerant at the inputs, when powered by a smaller supply voltage, for instance 3.3V. Here, this protection diode would cause the same trouble. Because of that, the 74VHC244 contains a different protection scheme, not shunting any overvoltage at the inputs to Vcc!

Now it's clear, why the original scheme contains this diode D1: Omitting the diode would again shunt high potential at one of the printer port lines to Vcc and make a turn-off of Vcc impossible.

That's why the 74VHC244 is used by the Atmel's original "ISP cable". It has nothing to do with speed or fan-out capability or else. No, the serial transmission is very slowly compared to the propagation delay times of buffers, and the output drive capability of 74VHC244 isn't superior at all either.

Theoretically also a 74LVC244 could be used, which doesn't contain these unsuited protection diodes at inputs either. But this chip isn't specified for a supply voltage of 5V.


What to use, if a 74VHC244 isn't available?
A LS-TTL variant does also provide an unwanted path from input to Vcc. So, I would recommend to split the buffering and the 5V tolerancy into two parts, like shown here:




The 74LS540 provides proper compatibility to the TTL signals of printer port. Take note that with many todays printer ports it's impossible to achieve CMOS compatible signals by the use of pull-ups!!! Especially if the printer port circuitry is powered by a 3.3V supply. So, using a 74HC540 with pull-ups at the inputs will not do the trick!

Printer port signals are really nasty! They go hardly above 3V when emitting high state and rise times of these signals can be up to 10µsec!! I measured a rise time of 8µsec in bidirectional or ECP mode at "Strobe"! Some better with EPP mode, though, happily.
So, not only the TTL levels makes it difficult to use a CMOS buffer but also the giant rise times of signals! This means: To be on the safe side, any circuit being connected to the printer port of a PC should have a 74LS244 compatible buffer at input, which can not only handle the TTL levels, but also the huge rise times, due to its Schmitt-trigger inputs!

Take note, the 74LS540 gets its own 5V supply, means this buffer is powered nearly all the time!

The 5V tolerancy is implemented by the following Schottky diodes, the 4k7 pull-ups and the 74HC14. And because the 74HC14 isn't strong enough to drive a transmission line, an additional 74HC541 is used. 74HCMOS was chosen to keep the supply current low. Remember, this circuitry must be powered by the micro's Vcc, too.

Do only use a flat ribbon cable to the target. Do not change the pinning!!! Keep this cable as short as possible, no longer than 50cm. Connect the circuitry directly to the printer port (DB25 plug). Do not use a cable here, if possible.

The following snippet shows, how the ISP cable should be connected to the micro:



During the programming, remove the jumper at the reset input of micro!


How to program the AT89S52 finally with all this above?
1. Start the Atmel's original ISP programming software (which is free, by the way) installed on your PC.
2. Turn-on Vbuffer.
3. Connect the circuit to the printer port (EPP mode preffered!).
4. Connect the ISP cable to the target (micro to be programmed).
5. Turn-on Vcc.
6. Do all the programmings (blank check, erase, write, verfiy, what ever you need).
7. When the micro was successfully programmed, turn-off Vcc.
8. Disconnect the ISP cable from the target.
9. Disconnect the circuit from the printer port.
10. Turn-off Vbuffer.

Happy programming!

Kai

List of 232 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
SPI ISP issues      Jan Waclawek      08/13/06 03:00      
   SPI ISP issues - part 2      Jan Waclawek      08/13/06 03:05      
      SPI ISP issues - part 3      Jan Waclawek      08/13/06 04:20      
   plural      Steve M. Taylor      08/13/06 05:38      
      Fora is certainly correct      Phillip M Gallo      08/14/06 15:44      
         no, it's not ...        Andy Peters      08/15/06 01:02      
            great post!      Phillip M Gallo      08/15/06 15:02      
   I think the biggest problem is with the AT      Richard Erlacher      08/13/06 10:22      
      maybe      Jan Waclawek      08/13/06 13:28      
         It's not necessarily the product ... it's the docs      Richard Erlacher      08/13/06 16:26      
            OK let them be so      Jan Waclawek      08/14/06 07:36      
               It's true, they shouldn't be used by anyone.      Richard Erlacher      08/14/06 08:27      
                  What would you suggest to use?      Kai Klaas      08/14/06 10:58      
                     Anything else at all would be fine ... even a PIC      Richard Erlacher      08/14/06 15:58      
                        Whaaaat???      Jan Waclawek      08/14/06 16:05      
                           ANYTHING but Atmel products!      Richard Erlacher      08/14/06 23:23      
                              Come on, Richard...      Kai Klaas      08/15/06 08:39      
                                 well, I, for one, agree with Richard      Erik Malund      08/15/06 08:44      
                                    Bullshit! Stating such is entirely ridiculous!      Kai Klaas      08/15/06 10:43      
                                       how can a FACT be \\\'ridiculous\\\"?      Erik Malund      08/15/06 10:49      
                                          It's ridiculous, because you deduce...      Kai Klaas      08/15/06 11:07      
                                             single event?      Erik Malund      08/15/06 11:19      
                                                Yes, and hundreds of events with Philips,      Kai Klaas      08/15/06 11:42      
                                                   a VERY high up 'idiot'      Erik Malund      08/16/06 07:01      
                                                Well, mine was a long series of events      Richard Erlacher      08/15/06 16:49      
                                                   there may be hope, sorry Kai      Erik Malund      08/17/06 12:05      
                                                      It will be a WARM December day in Moscow      Richard Erlacher      08/17/06 17:08      
                                                         maybe someone found out      Erik Malund      08/18/06 06:28      
                                                            The penalty isn't severe enough      Richard Erlacher      08/18/06 12:01      
                                                               blame the rest of the bunch      Erik Malund      08/18/06 12:52      
                                                                  Well, as I said, it's like U.S.-made cars      Richard Erlacher      08/18/06 16:41      
                                 If they'll do it to US, they'll do it to YOU!      Richard Erlacher      08/15/06 10:44      
                                    Do you really think that others are better??      Kai Klaas      08/15/06 11:03      
                                       all comapanies have things to blame them for      Erik Malund      08/15/06 11:18      
                                          Indeed!      Kai Klaas      08/15/06 11:36      
                                             a maxim about maxim      Andy Peters      08/15/06 12:17      
                                             Once upon a time ... there were second sources ...      Richard Erlacher      08/15/06 16:56      
                                       I don't love Philips, either      Richard Erlacher      08/15/06 16:51      
                                          I don't 'love' any company, but I 'love' to work w      Erik Malund      08/16/06 07:19      
                                             Once upon a time there were FAE's who knew things.      Richard Erlacher      08/16/06 09:43      
                                                once upon a time ...      Erik Malund      08/16/06 10:54      
                                                   Yes, it\'s like the grocery store      Richard Erlacher      08/16/06 14:23      
      The biggest problem is      Kai Klaas      08/14/06 07:44      
         do it - under my name      Jan Waclawek      08/14/06 08:33      
            All right, here is it...      Kai Klaas      08/18/06 21:49      
               Kai .. we're not getting a bit sensitive here ?      Phillip M Gallo      08/19/06 00:41      
                  noooooo................ hmm, maybe a bit...      Kai Klaas      08/19/06 23:07      
                     Why does this come up so frequently?      Richard Erlacher      08/19/06 23:19      
                        Because there is so much trash in the www!      Kai Klaas      08/21/06 10:21      
                           Maybe we can provide a local "fix" for that      Richard Erlacher      08/21/06 10:38      
                              Great idea, but...      Kai Klaas      08/21/06 22:04      
                                 the other side of the coin      Erik Malund      08/22/06 06:10      
                                    A fool who trusts on phantasy programmers      Kai Klaas      08/22/06 07:46      
                                       Kai the issue is        Erik Malund      08/22/06 08:02      
                                          Exactly!      Kai Klaas      08/22/06 09:14      
                                          Little Joe      Jon Ledbetter      08/22/06 09:26      
                                             did you not know      Erik Malund      08/22/06 09:44      
                                             especially since he\'s been deceased for some time      Richard Erlacher      08/22/06 09:58      
                                       Lots of those "fantasy" programmers are for sale      Richard Erlacher      08/22/06 09:57      
                                          What a trash!      Kai Klaas      08/22/06 22:23      
                                             Oddly enough, similar circuits work for JTAG      Richard Erlacher      08/22/06 22:31      
                                                Driving cables is nasty!!      Kai Klaas      08/22/06 22:53      
                                                   framkly, I wish eval-board makers would heed this      Richard Erlacher      08/22/06 23:16      
                                                      Have you tested series termination?      Kai Klaas      08/23/06 10:16      
                                                         would be great, but      Erik Malund      08/23/06 10:36      
                                                         Kai, I think that would be a WONDERFUL addition!      Richard Erlacher      08/23/06 12:52      
                                    Well, what I am thinking ...      Richard Erlacher      08/22/06 10:11      
                                       Yeah, but what's that to do with ISP?      Jon Ledbetter      08/22/06 10:20      
                                       grits, yes, oatmeal, no      Erik Malund      08/22/06 10:21      
                                          Some of 'em will look, read, and do SOME work      Richard Erlacher      08/22/06 17:57      
                                             and the winner is      Erik Malund      08/23/06 05:56      
               An alternative to Atmels ISP CABLE        Kai Klaas      08/20/06 22:46      
                  Profiting from highest noise margins      Kai Klaas      08/21/06 10:15      
                  comparator      Jan Waclawek      08/25/06 17:07      
                     Not so well suited...      Kai Klaas      08/26/06 08:28      
                        I don't understand.      Jan Waclawek      08/26/06 15:39      
                           Check the spec-sheets      Richard Erlacher      08/26/06 17:35      
                           I am sorry...      Kai Klaas      08/26/06 21:10      
                              cables et al      Jan Waclawek      08/27/06 00:57      
                                 Cables...      Kai Klaas      08/27/06 09:03      
                                    software      Jan Waclawek      08/27/06 15:09      
                                       ps      Jan Waclawek      08/27/06 16:17      
                                       To be honest...      Kai Klaas      08/27/06 20:12      
                                          Atmel software... a piece of @%^&      Jan Waclawek      08/28/06 04:02      
                                             it's for amateurs      Erik Malund      08/28/06 06:58      
                                                ??      Kai Klaas      08/28/06 07:20      
                                             Not at all        Kai Klaas      08/28/06 07:19      
                                                dear amateurs, be realistic      Erik Malund      08/28/06 08:02      
                                                   Erik, did you mean...      Jan Waclawek      08/28/06 09:24      
                                                      Why, oh, why      Erik Malund      08/28/06 09:39      
                                                         why, oh why      Jan Waclawek      08/28/06 09:45      
                                                            not the issue      Erik Malund      08/28/06 10:32      
                                                but you ARE professional!!!!      Jan Waclawek      08/28/06 09:39      
                                                   now, I'm going to upset Richard      Erik Malund      08/28/06 09:44      
                                                      ICE?      Jan Waclawek      08/28/06 09:51      
                                                      No success stories      Maarten Brock      08/28/06 12:28      
                                                         Exactly!      Kai Klaas      08/28/06 20:48      
                                                      Grrrr! Well, maybe not this time ...      Richard Erlacher      08/28/06 12:35      
                                             it makes you wonder, doesn't it?      Richard Erlacher      08/28/06 12:28      
                  ATMEL cable with the HC      Jan Waclawek      08/28/06 09:49      
                     another idea      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 06:58      
                        please, pretty please      Erik Malund      08/29/06 07:22      
                           there is no magic      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 07:32      
                              you said it      Erik Malund      08/29/06 07:47      
                                 you got me wrong      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 07:53      
                                    do not blame me for what YOU said :)      Erik Malund      08/29/06 08:04      
                                       teaching is hard      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 08:32      
                                          good analogy, the question is      Erik Malund      08/29/06 08:47      
                                             when I turned my back...      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 09:07      
                                                you forgot      Erik Malund      08/29/06 09:14      
                                                   filter      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 09:19      
                                                      nope      Erik Malund      08/29/06 09:25      
                        upside-down      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 07:49      
                           and the 3rd reader      Erik Malund      08/29/06 07:57      
                              he already did      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 08:14      
                                 a good one      Erik Malund      08/29/06 08:51      
                                    tell it beforehand      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 09:11      
                              The newbie SHALL try to build his stuff, but...      Kai Klaas      08/29/06 09:24      
                                 allow a reply of \"you stupid idiot\" to anyone      Erik Malund      08/29/06 09:33      
                        Will not do the trick, unfortunately      Kai Klaas      08/29/06 09:14      
                           decoupling the LPT lines?      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 09:41      
                              Low state noise margin...      Kai Klaas      08/29/06 09:43      
                                 and with a Schottky?      Jan Waclawek      08/29/06 09:53      
                                    No, I wouldn't recommend this      Kai Klaas      08/29/06 21:04      
                                       www.reichelt.de      Jan Waclawek      08/30/06 02:02      
                                          Ok, to be more precisely...      Kai Klaas      08/30/06 09:28      
                                             can you please draw it down?      Jan Waclawek      08/30/06 11:46      
                                                Replace the 74VHC244 in the original circuit      Kai Klaas      08/30/06 12:03      
                                    How would a germanium work?      Richard Erlacher      08/29/06 22:10      
                                       Could work!      Kai Klaas      08/29/06 22:34      
               thanks, Kai!      Jan Waclawek      08/25/06 16:58      
                  Schottky diodes      Kai Klaas      08/26/06 21:29      
                     to Schottky or not to Schottky :-)      Jan Waclawek      08/27/06 00:46      
                        Yes, but we must assume a minimum standard...      Kai Klaas      08/27/06 08:32      
                           shopping      Jan Waclawek      08/27/06 14:57      
                              My point is..      Kai Klaas      08/27/06 20:06      
                        You can use an array      Richard Erlacher      08/27/06 12:25      
                           Your search - 74S1023 - did not match any document      Jan Waclawek      08/27/06 15:03      
                              SN74S1053      Kai Klaas      08/27/06 19:54      
                              OOPS! it is 74S1053 ... sorry!      Richard Erlacher      08/27/06 22:29      
   the issues      Erik Malund      08/15/06 07:50      
   a most telling thread      Erik Malund      08/15/06 09:11      
      The root problem is that the first thing one needs      Richard Erlacher      08/15/06 17:02      
   "dedicated programmer"      Jan Waclawek      08/31/06 02:50      
      what's difficult to understand ...      Richard Erlacher      08/31/06 08:03      
         Ok, how do you propose they program and erase the      Erik Malund      08/31/06 08:27      
            I would not be quite so sure about that      Jan Waclawek      08/31/06 08:43      
            Keep in mind that this is for newbies ...      Richard Erlacher      08/31/06 12:29      
               but they still have to build it      Erik Malund      08/31/06 13:45      
      Only because it looks simple does not mean...      Kai Klaas      08/31/06 14:33      
         he's desperate      Erik Malund      08/31/06 15:19      
         there are lots of circuits published like this!      Richard Erlacher      08/31/06 16:41      
            I used to have memory mapped I/O in virtual      Erik Malund      09/01/06 06:23      
               I wouldn't say that ...      Richard Erlacher      09/01/06 09:00      
                  that threy learn to drive with a stick shift      Erik Malund      09/01/06 09:40      
                     Once again, you are exaggerating ...      Richard Erlacher      09/01/06 09:59      
                        the point I\'m trying to make (and believe that I      Erik Malund      09/01/06 10:46      
                           Yes, but in 101 you've got to use a '51 or '31      Richard Erlacher      09/01/06 13:47      
                              nonono      Jan Waclawek      09/01/06 14:16      
                                 Perhaps you\'re right, in this case ...      Richard Erlacher      09/01/06 14:40      
                                    I don't think so      Jan Waclawek      09/01/06 15:21      
                                       Ah but..      Steve M. Taylor      09/03/06 21:00      
                              halelujah!      Erik Malund      09/05/06 09:51      
                           the problem with RD2 is...      Jan Waclawek      09/01/06 14:17      
                              what cost the most      Erik Malund      09/05/06 09:58      
                                 cost      Jan Waclawek      09/06/06 08:40      
                                    patience is what it takes      Richard Erlacher      09/06/06 15:57      
         let's sort it out      Jan Waclawek      09/06/06 08:52      
   Richard, you aregue things that, while valuable ,      Erik Malund      09/05/06 09:56      
   Its not the cables if you ask me.      Jez Smith      09/06/06 15:25      
      an interesting thought      Erik Malund      09/06/06 15:39      
         It's probably not JUST this part ...      Richard Erlacher      09/06/06 16:01      
      not the cable alone      Jan Waclawek      09/07/06 01:00      
         it will, but      Erik Malund      09/07/06 06:34      
      It simply has to do with the numbers      Kai Klaas      09/07/06 09:02      
         maybe not quite ...      Richard Erlacher      09/07/06 09:33      
            I was assuming...      Kai Klaas      09/07/06 09:58      
               a case like that ...      Richard Erlacher      09/07/06 11:32      
                  I have      Erik Malund      09/07/06 11:43      
                     Perhaps it's that the approach is wrong      Richard Erlacher      09/07/06 15:29      
                        I guess I have seen those ... ...      Richard Erlacher      09/18/06 10:37      
   fresh thoughts      Jan Waclawek      09/18/06 07:52      
      ???????????????      Kai Klaas      09/18/06 11:03      
         I'm puzzled, too, Jan      Richard Erlacher      09/19/06 08:57      
            2 different things      Jan Waclawek      09/19/06 11:49      
               au contraire      Erik Malund      09/19/06 11:53      
                  from the ISP point of view...      Jan Waclawek      09/19/06 12:13      
                     if you have "no reset and oscillator"      Erik Malund      09/19/06 12:29      
                        sure      Jan Waclawek      09/19/06 12:36      
                           Ok \"in-situ programming\" works but that is not ISP      Erik Malund      09/19/06 12:51      
                              Does this scheme actually work reliably?      Richard Erlacher      09/19/06 13:32      
                                 Guiness book?      Erik Malund      09/19/06 13:46      
                                    This all goes back to the "AT" in the part number      Richard Erlacher      09/19/06 14:59      
               Nothing magic with reset and oscillator      Kai Klaas      09/19/06 20:27      
                  I am talking about the rusty nail      Jan Waclawek      09/20/06 01:19      
                     Yes, here you are right!      Kai Klaas      09/20/06 08:10      
                        just helping      Erik Malund      09/20/06 08:42      
                           200      Steve M. Taylor      09/20/06 09:59      
                           not quite, but I like the idea      Jan Waclawek      09/20/06 11:50      
                           Exactly!      Kai Klaas      09/20/06 12:34      
                              ... and that's why I advocate for the 8032 version      Richard Erlacher      09/20/06 22:13      
                                 Stuff it        Steve M. Taylor      09/20/06 23:40      
                                    This will soon be moot      Erik Malund      09/21/06 07:05      
                                       Central Europe?      Jan Waclawek      09/21/06 07:28      
                                    Mistake...      Kai Klaas      09/21/06 08:06      
                                       you think so, I do not      Erik Malund      09/21/06 08:13      
                                          Better hope...      Kai Klaas      09/21/06 08:31      
                                             no love there      Erik Malund      09/21/06 08:44      
                                    Nothing is perfect...      Jan Waclawek      09/22/06 01:24      
                                       HUH      Erik Malund      09/22/06 06:27      
                                          waitaminute      Jan Waclawek      09/22/06 06:43      
                                             same desert      Erik Malund      09/22/06 06:56      
                                                it appears so      Jan Waclawek      09/22/06 07:00      
                                 male cow manure      Erik Malund      09/21/06 06:57      
                                    Eprom programmers are cheap and simple      Richard Erlacher      09/21/06 10:46      
                                       Cheaper than a $25 Atmel cable ?      Erik Malund      09/21/06 11:17      
                                          Yes, and widely applicable, too      Richard Erlacher      09/22/06 10:05      
                                             beware      Erik Malund      09/22/06 11:12      
                                                That's the usual line from an Asian vendor in U.S.      Richard Erlacher      09/22/06 14:09      
   fresh experience      Jan Waclawek      09/26/06 02:26      
      I am not going to vote 'off topic' but      Erik Malund      09/26/06 06:26      
         I am still just thinking aloud...      Jan Waclawek      09/26/06 07:27      
   just helping      Jez Smith      09/26/06 07:50      
   222 posts WOW!!      Jez Smith      09/26/06 07:51      
      EEEK! Why would you get that close?      Richard Erlacher      09/26/06 10:44      
         post number 224 and counting      Jez Smith      09/27/06 09:49      
            Well, I\'m a dog person ...      Richard Erlacher      09/27/06 11:37      
               226      Erik Malund      09/27/06 11:41      
                  tie a brick around his neck      Richard Erlacher      09/27/06 11:54      
                  %$#@! it happened again!      Richard Erlacher      09/27/06 11:55      
                     Programming Dogs      Jon Ledbetter      09/27/06 12:52      
                        230 tried it      Erik Malund      09/27/06 13:00      

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