| Jan Waclawek 09/26/06 02:26 Read: 1042 times Bratislava Slovakia |
#125052 - fresh experience Responding to: Jan Waclawek's previous message |
Yesterday I was "burning" an AT89S52, in-situ. I have access to parallel programmers and the chip was socketed, but I wanted to try it so I did not cheat :-)
For that, I built a "burner" from P89V51RD2, some supply (7805), a crystal, and a reset circuit. All in "bird's nest" style (the "burner" is not part of the circuit to be delivered so I didn't care). Still, I believe this is much better than any of the "LPT-connected" "cable". The power was shared between the target board and the "burner". The target board has a proper reset IC, so no concern about problems during powerdown. The "burner" firmware allows to manipulate the reset line (mental reminder: I need to add "manual manipulation" of the rest of signals (MISO MOSI SCK) and a "readback" of the state), set "speed" of SPI interface, transmit and receive individual bytes via SPI, and - the real stuff - emulates the "intelhex" protocol for the actual programming itself (I am using FlashMagic for convenience - Andrew Ayre would please kindly forgive this abuse). I was cheating a little bit, as this setup was already tried in an almost a "standalone" configuration (the target AT89S52 in that configuration had the MISO/MOSI/SCK pins reserved for programming). But this time it did not work at once. Bah... Scope would be cheating so let's see what we can do with a cheap DMM. The first problem was in the reset. On the target, a TL7705 provided reset for AT89S52. The "positive" reset output is an open collector of a PNP (!) transistor in TL7705, so it needs a pulldown. There is one built-in in AT89S52, but I don't like these things left "floating" (for case when other derivative with possibly no internal pulldown on RST is used); so there is an extra 10k pulldown. The "burner" had no pullup on pin driving RST, and the internal set of pullups of P89V51RD2 was good only to pull it up to some 2.6V... A 1k pullup and here we go with 4.5V, that's good enough. The second problem was that MOSI conflicted with the circuit on board. There is a rotary encoder connected to it. Of course, when I designed the board, I knew it might conflict and that I would need to set the encoder so that it's switch is open during programming. And, of course, I forgot that when it came to actual programming. But this was easy to discover, too; and would be much easier would I put the manual manipulation and readback feature into the "burner's" firmware. After the second problem solved (encoder turned to proper position), the autobaud/erase/program/verify/run cycle was repeated several times, with absolutely no problem whatsoever. Conclusion (valid for LPT-style "programmers", too): - state of RESET/MISO/MOSI/SCK (and oscillator) should be known (read back), and they should be settable/resettable "manually" - consistent behaviour is much more easier to achieve in a "standalone" programmer Jan Waclawek |
| Topic | Author | Date |
| SPI ISP issues | Jan Waclawek | 08/13/06 03:00 |
| SPI ISP issues - part 2 | Jan Waclawek | 08/13/06 03:05 |
| SPI ISP issues - part 3 | Jan Waclawek | 08/13/06 04:20 |
| plural | Steve M. Taylor | 08/13/06 05:38 |
| Fora is certainly correct | Phillip M Gallo | 08/14/06 15:44 |
| no, it's not ... | Andy Peters | 08/15/06 01:02 |
| great post! | Phillip M Gallo | 08/15/06 15:02 |
| I think the biggest problem is with the AT | Richard Erlacher | 08/13/06 10:22 |
| maybe | Jan Waclawek | 08/13/06 13:28 |
| It's not necessarily the product ... it's the docs | Richard Erlacher | 08/13/06 16:26 |
| OK let them be so | Jan Waclawek | 08/14/06 07:36 |
| It's true, they shouldn't be used by anyone. | Richard Erlacher | 08/14/06 08:27 |
| What would you suggest to use? | Kai Klaas | 08/14/06 10:58 |
| Anything else at all would be fine ... even a PIC | Richard Erlacher | 08/14/06 15:58 |
| Whaaaat??? | Jan Waclawek | 08/14/06 16:05 |
| ANYTHING but Atmel products! | Richard Erlacher | 08/14/06 23:23 |
| Come on, Richard... | Kai Klaas | 08/15/06 08:39 |
| well, I, for one, agree with Richard | Erik Malund | 08/15/06 08:44 |
| Bullshit! Stating such is entirely ridiculous! | Kai Klaas | 08/15/06 10:43 |
| how can a FACT be \\\'ridiculous\\\"? | Erik Malund | 08/15/06 10:49 |
| It's ridiculous, because you deduce... | Kai Klaas | 08/15/06 11:07 |
| single event? | Erik Malund | 08/15/06 11:19 |
| Yes, and hundreds of events with Philips, | Kai Klaas | 08/15/06 11:42 |
| a VERY high up 'idiot' | Erik Malund | 08/16/06 07:01 |
| Well, mine was a long series of events | Richard Erlacher | 08/15/06 16:49 |
| there may be hope, sorry Kai | Erik Malund | 08/17/06 12:05 |
| It will be a WARM December day in Moscow | Richard Erlacher | 08/17/06 17:08 |
| maybe someone found out | Erik Malund | 08/18/06 06:28 |
| The penalty isn't severe enough | Richard Erlacher | 08/18/06 12:01 |
| blame the rest of the bunch | Erik Malund | 08/18/06 12:52 |
| Well, as I said, it's like U.S.-made cars | Richard Erlacher | 08/18/06 16:41 |
| If they'll do it to US, they'll do it to YOU! | Richard Erlacher | 08/15/06 10:44 |
| Do you really think that others are better?? | Kai Klaas | 08/15/06 11:03 |
| all comapanies have things to blame them for | Erik Malund | 08/15/06 11:18 |
| Indeed! | Kai Klaas | 08/15/06 11:36 |
| a maxim about maxim | Andy Peters | 08/15/06 12:17 |
| Once upon a time ... there were second sources ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/15/06 16:56 |
| I don't love Philips, either | Richard Erlacher | 08/15/06 16:51 |
| I don't 'love' any company, but I 'love' to work w | Erik Malund | 08/16/06 07:19 |
| Once upon a time there were FAE's who knew things. | Richard Erlacher | 08/16/06 09:43 |
| once upon a time ... | Erik Malund | 08/16/06 10:54 |
| Yes, it\'s like the grocery store | Richard Erlacher | 08/16/06 14:23 |
| The biggest problem is | Kai Klaas | 08/14/06 07:44 |
| do it - under my name | Jan Waclawek | 08/14/06 08:33 |
| All right, here is it... | Kai Klaas | 08/18/06 21:49 |
| Kai .. we're not getting a bit sensitive here ? | Phillip M Gallo | 08/19/06 00:41 |
| noooooo................ hmm, maybe a bit... | Kai Klaas | 08/19/06 23:07 |
| Why does this come up so frequently? | Richard Erlacher | 08/19/06 23:19 |
| Because there is so much trash in the www! | Kai Klaas | 08/21/06 10:21 |
| Maybe we can provide a local "fix" for that | Richard Erlacher | 08/21/06 10:38 |
| Great idea, but... | Kai Klaas | 08/21/06 22:04 |
| the other side of the coin | Erik Malund | 08/22/06 06:10 |
| A fool who trusts on phantasy programmers | Kai Klaas | 08/22/06 07:46 |
| Kai the issue is | Erik Malund | 08/22/06 08:02 |
| Exactly! | Kai Klaas | 08/22/06 09:14 |
| Little Joe | Jon Ledbetter | 08/22/06 09:26 |
| did you not know | Erik Malund | 08/22/06 09:44 |
| especially since he\'s been deceased for some time | Richard Erlacher | 08/22/06 09:58 |
| Lots of those "fantasy" programmers are for sale | Richard Erlacher | 08/22/06 09:57 |
| What a trash! | Kai Klaas | 08/22/06 22:23 |
| Oddly enough, similar circuits work for JTAG | Richard Erlacher | 08/22/06 22:31 |
| Driving cables is nasty!! | Kai Klaas | 08/22/06 22:53 |
| framkly, I wish eval-board makers would heed this | Richard Erlacher | 08/22/06 23:16 |
| Have you tested series termination? | Kai Klaas | 08/23/06 10:16 |
| would be great, but | Erik Malund | 08/23/06 10:36 |
| Kai, I think that would be a WONDERFUL addition! | Richard Erlacher | 08/23/06 12:52 |
| Well, what I am thinking ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/22/06 10:11 |
| Yeah, but what's that to do with ISP? | Jon Ledbetter | 08/22/06 10:20 |
| grits, yes, oatmeal, no | Erik Malund | 08/22/06 10:21 |
| Some of 'em will look, read, and do SOME work | Richard Erlacher | 08/22/06 17:57 |
| and the winner is | Erik Malund | 08/23/06 05:56 |
| An alternative to Atmels ISP CABLE | Kai Klaas | 08/20/06 22:46 |
| Profiting from highest noise margins | Kai Klaas | 08/21/06 10:15 |
| comparator | Jan Waclawek | 08/25/06 17:07 |
| Not so well suited... | Kai Klaas | 08/26/06 08:28 |
| I don't understand. | Jan Waclawek | 08/26/06 15:39 |
| Check the spec-sheets | Richard Erlacher | 08/26/06 17:35 |
| I am sorry... | Kai Klaas | 08/26/06 21:10 |
| cables et al | Jan Waclawek | 08/27/06 00:57 |
| Cables... | Kai Klaas | 08/27/06 09:03 |
| software | Jan Waclawek | 08/27/06 15:09 |
| ps | Jan Waclawek | 08/27/06 16:17 |
| To be honest... | Kai Klaas | 08/27/06 20:12 |
| Atmel software... a piece of @%^& | Jan Waclawek | 08/28/06 04:02 |
| it's for amateurs | Erik Malund | 08/28/06 06:58 |
| ?? | Kai Klaas | 08/28/06 07:20 |
| Not at all | Kai Klaas | 08/28/06 07:19 |
| dear amateurs, be realistic | Erik Malund | 08/28/06 08:02 |
| Erik, did you mean... | Jan Waclawek | 08/28/06 09:24 |
| Why, oh, why | Erik Malund | 08/28/06 09:39 |
| why, oh why | Jan Waclawek | 08/28/06 09:45 |
| not the issue | Erik Malund | 08/28/06 10:32 |
| but you ARE professional!!!! | Jan Waclawek | 08/28/06 09:39 |
| now, I'm going to upset Richard | Erik Malund | 08/28/06 09:44 |
| ICE? | Jan Waclawek | 08/28/06 09:51 |
| No success stories | Maarten Brock | 08/28/06 12:28 |
| Exactly! | Kai Klaas | 08/28/06 20:48 |
| Grrrr! Well, maybe not this time ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/28/06 12:35 |
| it makes you wonder, doesn't it? | Richard Erlacher | 08/28/06 12:28 |
| ATMEL cable with the HC | Jan Waclawek | 08/28/06 09:49 |
| another idea | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 06:58 |
| please, pretty please | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 07:22 |
| there is no magic | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 07:32 |
| you said it | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 07:47 |
| you got me wrong | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 07:53 |
| do not blame me for what YOU said :) | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 08:04 |
| teaching is hard | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 08:32 |
| good analogy, the question is | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 08:47 |
| when I turned my back... | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 09:07 |
| you forgot | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 09:14 |
| filter | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 09:19 |
| nope | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 09:25 |
| upside-down | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 07:49 |
| and the 3rd reader | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 07:57 |
| he already did | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 08:14 |
| a good one | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 08:51 |
| tell it beforehand | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 09:11 |
| The newbie SHALL try to build his stuff, but... | Kai Klaas | 08/29/06 09:24 |
| allow a reply of \"you stupid idiot\" to anyone | Erik Malund | 08/29/06 09:33 |
| Will not do the trick, unfortunately | Kai Klaas | 08/29/06 09:14 |
| decoupling the LPT lines? | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 09:41 |
| Low state noise margin... | Kai Klaas | 08/29/06 09:43 |
| and with a Schottky? | Jan Waclawek | 08/29/06 09:53 |
| No, I wouldn't recommend this | Kai Klaas | 08/29/06 21:04 |
| www.reichelt.de | Jan Waclawek | 08/30/06 02:02 |
| Ok, to be more precisely... | Kai Klaas | 08/30/06 09:28 |
| can you please draw it down? | Jan Waclawek | 08/30/06 11:46 |
| Replace the 74VHC244 in the original circuit | Kai Klaas | 08/30/06 12:03 |
| How would a germanium work? | Richard Erlacher | 08/29/06 22:10 |
| Could work! | Kai Klaas | 08/29/06 22:34 |
| thanks, Kai! | Jan Waclawek | 08/25/06 16:58 |
| Schottky diodes | Kai Klaas | 08/26/06 21:29 |
| to Schottky or not to Schottky :-) | Jan Waclawek | 08/27/06 00:46 |
| Yes, but we must assume a minimum standard... | Kai Klaas | 08/27/06 08:32 |
| shopping | Jan Waclawek | 08/27/06 14:57 |
| My point is.. | Kai Klaas | 08/27/06 20:06 |
| You can use an array | Richard Erlacher | 08/27/06 12:25 |
| Your search - 74S1023 - did not match any document | Jan Waclawek | 08/27/06 15:03 |
| SN74S1053 | Kai Klaas | 08/27/06 19:54 |
| OOPS! it is 74S1053 ... sorry! | Richard Erlacher | 08/27/06 22:29 |
| the issues | Erik Malund | 08/15/06 07:50 |
| a most telling thread | Erik Malund | 08/15/06 09:11 |
| The root problem is that the first thing one needs | Richard Erlacher | 08/15/06 17:02 |
| "dedicated programmer" | Jan Waclawek | 08/31/06 02:50 |
| what's difficult to understand ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/31/06 08:03 |
| Ok, how do you propose they program and erase the | Erik Malund | 08/31/06 08:27 |
| I would not be quite so sure about that | Jan Waclawek | 08/31/06 08:43 |
| Keep in mind that this is for newbies ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/31/06 12:29 |
| but they still have to build it | Erik Malund | 08/31/06 13:45 |
| Only because it looks simple does not mean... | Kai Klaas | 08/31/06 14:33 |
| he's desperate | Erik Malund | 08/31/06 15:19 |
| there are lots of circuits published like this! | Richard Erlacher | 08/31/06 16:41 |
| I used to have memory mapped I/O in virtual | Erik Malund | 09/01/06 06:23 |
| I wouldn't say that ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/01/06 09:00 |
| that threy learn to drive with a stick shift | Erik Malund | 09/01/06 09:40 |
| Once again, you are exaggerating ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/01/06 09:59 |
| the point I\'m trying to make (and believe that I | Erik Malund | 09/01/06 10:46 |
| Yes, but in 101 you've got to use a '51 or '31 | Richard Erlacher | 09/01/06 13:47 |
| nonono | Jan Waclawek | 09/01/06 14:16 |
| Perhaps you\'re right, in this case ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/01/06 14:40 |
| I don't think so | Jan Waclawek | 09/01/06 15:21 |
| Ah but.. | Steve M. Taylor | 09/03/06 21:00 |
| halelujah! | Erik Malund | 09/05/06 09:51 |
| the problem with RD2 is... | Jan Waclawek | 09/01/06 14:17 |
| what cost the most | Erik Malund | 09/05/06 09:58 |
| cost | Jan Waclawek | 09/06/06 08:40 |
| patience is what it takes | Richard Erlacher | 09/06/06 15:57 |
| let's sort it out | Jan Waclawek | 09/06/06 08:52 |
| Richard, you aregue things that, while valuable , | Erik Malund | 09/05/06 09:56 |
| Its not the cables if you ask me. | Jez Smith | 09/06/06 15:25 |
| an interesting thought | Erik Malund | 09/06/06 15:39 |
| It's probably not JUST this part ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/06/06 16:01 |
| not the cable alone | Jan Waclawek | 09/07/06 01:00 |
| it will, but | Erik Malund | 09/07/06 06:34 |
| It simply has to do with the numbers | Kai Klaas | 09/07/06 09:02 |
| maybe not quite ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/07/06 09:33 |
| I was assuming... | Kai Klaas | 09/07/06 09:58 |
| a case like that ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/07/06 11:32 |
| I have | Erik Malund | 09/07/06 11:43 |
| Perhaps it's that the approach is wrong | Richard Erlacher | 09/07/06 15:29 |
| I guess I have seen those ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/18/06 10:37 |
| fresh thoughts | Jan Waclawek | 09/18/06 07:52 |
| ??????????????? | Kai Klaas | 09/18/06 11:03 |
| I'm puzzled, too, Jan | Richard Erlacher | 09/19/06 08:57 |
| 2 different things | Jan Waclawek | 09/19/06 11:49 |
| au contraire | Erik Malund | 09/19/06 11:53 |
| from the ISP point of view... | Jan Waclawek | 09/19/06 12:13 |
| if you have "no reset and oscillator" | Erik Malund | 09/19/06 12:29 |
| sure | Jan Waclawek | 09/19/06 12:36 |
| Ok \"in-situ programming\" works but that is not ISP | Erik Malund | 09/19/06 12:51 |
| Does this scheme actually work reliably? | Richard Erlacher | 09/19/06 13:32 |
| Guiness book? | Erik Malund | 09/19/06 13:46 |
| This all goes back to the "AT" in the part number | Richard Erlacher | 09/19/06 14:59 |
| Nothing magic with reset and oscillator | Kai Klaas | 09/19/06 20:27 |
| I am talking about the rusty nail | Jan Waclawek | 09/20/06 01:19 |
| Yes, here you are right! | Kai Klaas | 09/20/06 08:10 |
| just helping | Erik Malund | 09/20/06 08:42 |
| 200 | Steve M. Taylor | 09/20/06 09:59 |
| not quite, but I like the idea | Jan Waclawek | 09/20/06 11:50 |
| Exactly! | Kai Klaas | 09/20/06 12:34 |
| ... and that's why I advocate for the 8032 version | Richard Erlacher | 09/20/06 22:13 |
| Stuff it | Steve M. Taylor | 09/20/06 23:40 |
| This will soon be moot | Erik Malund | 09/21/06 07:05 |
| Central Europe? | Jan Waclawek | 09/21/06 07:28 |
| Mistake... | Kai Klaas | 09/21/06 08:06 |
| you think so, I do not | Erik Malund | 09/21/06 08:13 |
| Better hope... | Kai Klaas | 09/21/06 08:31 |
| no love there | Erik Malund | 09/21/06 08:44 |
| Nothing is perfect... | Jan Waclawek | 09/22/06 01:24 |
| HUH | Erik Malund | 09/22/06 06:27 |
| waitaminute | Jan Waclawek | 09/22/06 06:43 |
| same desert | Erik Malund | 09/22/06 06:56 |
| it appears so | Jan Waclawek | 09/22/06 07:00 |
| male cow manure | Erik Malund | 09/21/06 06:57 |
| Eprom programmers are cheap and simple | Richard Erlacher | 09/21/06 10:46 |
| Cheaper than a $25 Atmel cable ? | Erik Malund | 09/21/06 11:17 |
| Yes, and widely applicable, too | Richard Erlacher | 09/22/06 10:05 |
| beware | Erik Malund | 09/22/06 11:12 |
| That's the usual line from an Asian vendor in U.S. | Richard Erlacher | 09/22/06 14:09 |
| fresh experience | Jan Waclawek | 09/26/06 02:26 |
| I am not going to vote 'off topic' but | Erik Malund | 09/26/06 06:26 |
| I am still just thinking aloud... | Jan Waclawek | 09/26/06 07:27 |
| just helping | Jez Smith | 09/26/06 07:50 |
| 222 posts WOW!! | Jez Smith | 09/26/06 07:51 |
| EEEK! Why would you get that close? | Richard Erlacher | 09/26/06 10:44 |
| post number 224 and counting | Jez Smith | 09/27/06 09:49 |
| Well, I\'m a dog person ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/27/06 11:37 |
| 226 | Erik Malund | 09/27/06 11:41 |
| tie a brick around his neck | Richard Erlacher | 09/27/06 11:54 |
| %$#@! it happened again! | Richard Erlacher | 09/27/06 11:55 |
| Programming Dogs | Jon Ledbetter | 09/27/06 12:52 |
230 tried it | Erik Malund | 09/27/06 13:00 |



