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Richard Erlacher
08/14/07 02:50
Read: 409 times
Denver, Co
USA


 
#143244 - I don't know what to say ...
Responding to: Jan Waclawek's previous message
Jan Waclawek said:
Richard,

You are at least as quick in your conclusions as per my engineering-o-troubleshooting methods as I am in guessing your background (which, btw. would be interesting to know, at least to the extent relevant to this discussion - i.e. what is the typical power supply of the equipment of your design, and whether it runs 24/7 - we already know that you are using the RC reset typically).

My typical MCU application is a relatively small circuit, of no more than, perhaps 80 IC's, or an equivalent programmable circuit. It has an on-off switch and a reset button. In fewer than 10% of the cases, it uses an 805x. Most of the time it uses an MCU with a negative-going reset, e.g. 'HC11, HC05/08. Power is typically provided by a linear supply derived from a 13-volt CT transformer, a diode bridge or two, one or two, or even three capacitors, using 78xx or LM340-type regulators or an equivalent adjustable with or without a pass member. I'm not fond of LDO's, as their frequency response is not what I prefer. Yes, I do generally rely on RC reset, as it seldom causes problems in cases using negative-going reset.

What I present as an anecdote here in fact required a lot of work to discover the root case of the problem (and as I already told here, I presented only a fraction of the problems I and/or my colleagues came accross). Just recall my stories - how do you think we discovered the problem with working '51 and dying peripheral at low VCC, resulting in - in fact, from the viewpoint of the mcu, correct - extraneous input to be accepted and stored in the NVRAM? And, how do you think, we discovered the problem with short reset pulse causing the '51 program starting at address 112h? Do you really believe this is a result of a handwaving approach?

I do recall some of the stories, but don't see how they related to your solution, namely using a supervisor, or why that was necessary, nor do I recall you explaining how you pinned the problem to the reset, when it was clearly an out-of-spec power supply. How did you measure the Vcc behavior? How did you and your colleagues determine that the power supply was subsequently correct? How did you persuade yourselves that the problem you had observed and for which you'd applied a "solution" had now been rectified?

I never said the problems were not related to insufficient or otherwise suspicios power. Contrary - often this was the root case, indeed. However, as I said many many times, I find it ridiculous to design around a perfect power supply, while this more complicated and expensive than the reset IC - and, in many cases, it won't help, contrary to the reset IC.

I don't believe a power supply has to be "perfect." It does have to be adequate, though. That means that it has to have sufficient current to raise Vcc at an acceptable rate and allow it to fall at an acceptable rate as well. There are numerous ways of accomplishing this, some complex, some not, but all require that the power supply not rely on the target board having lots of on-board capacitance, as that will slow the dVcc/dt.

Richard, please stop trying to find a problem where there is none. Please accept the facts.

I'll accept them when they're presented. Apparently you don't believe there is a "reset problem" though I've seen it brought up again and again. I've never encountered a proven "reset problem" in my own work, though I have seen a problem apparently associated with seemingly incorrect dVcc/dt, probably resulting from excessive on-board capacitance on Vcc. Only after starting to investigate the problem did I encounter what I thought might be a reset issue, in the form of the BBRAM corruption.

Jan






List of 125 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
89C2051 oscillator does not oscillate (?)      Rubem Pechansky      08/06/07 17:08      
   Capacitor value?      Russell Bull      08/06/07 17:58      
      20-40pF indeed      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:00      
         it might be the crystal      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 08:05      
            Probably not      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:24      
               because it\'s crap      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 08:31      
                  Not same position      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:38      
                     one cap or two makes most probably no difference..      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 09:38      
                        Not on the pins      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 11:45      
                           I'd recomend you re-read the spec's ...      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:08      
                           It's the same Vcc      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 17:14      
                  Hhm...I wouldn't recommend this paralleling      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 09:51      
                     hummm... really? In what frequency range?      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 10:00      
                        The inductance of the left resonating with...      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 10:17      
                           interesting      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 10:35      
                        Spice models      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 08:57      
                           Thanks, Kai.      Jan Waclawek      08/08/07 09:18      
                           Numerical calculation, some examples...      Kai Klaas      08/09/07 12:09      
   Wrong reset scheme!      Kai Klaas      08/06/07 22:24      
      10µF reset capacitor to Vcc      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:06      
      Isn't that the mfg's recommended circuit?      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:10      
         Which do you mean?      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 11:43      
            10 uF to Vcc and 8.2K (built-in?) to GND      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 00:24      
               no, it is not      Erik Malund      08/13/07 11:10      
                  If it's in nearly every datasheet ...      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 12:55      
                     this is your perception of the things, Richard      Jan Waclawek      08/13/07 13:04      
                        Here we go again ...      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 18:37      
                           ... and again...      Jan Waclawek      08/13/07 23:22      
                              I don't know what to say ...      Richard Erlacher      08/14/07 02:50      
                                 there is NO out of spec power supply      Jan Waclawek      08/14/07 03:36      
                                    Not only...      Kai Klaas      08/14/07 07:34      
                                       Not allways      Daniel Contarino      08/15/07 12:24      
                                       Have you seen evidence of improvement?      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 09:55      
                                          Wider spectrum      Kai Klaas      08/19/07 11:51      
                                             maybe ratio of good/bad crystals is the same...      Jan Waclawek      08/19/07 14:16      
                                                In all the various designs I produced ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 17:10      
                                                   Never had a failure until now      Grant Beattie      08/20/07 13:16      
                                                   I know of lots of crystal problems...      Kai Klaas      08/21/07 12:02      
                                                      Could be, but I've never encountered it ...      Richard Erlacher      08/21/07 12:32      
                                                      %$#@! Double-post again ... ...      Richard Erlacher      08/21/07 12:32      
                                       ^%$#@! double-post ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 09:55      
                                    If the datasheet says 1 ms ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 09:58      
                           more about locomotives      Erik Malund      08/14/07 06:59      
                              symptoms suggest ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 10:09      
                     steam locomotives      Erik Malund      08/13/07 13:15      
                        I like the steam locomotives      Jan Waclawek      08/13/07 14:26      
                           So do I      Steve M. Taylor      08/13/07 15:05      
                              me too, said the dog      Erik Malund      08/13/07 15:10      
                                 The kids should be smarter than that!      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 18:39      
                                    kids are kids      Erik Malund      08/14/07 06:46      
   It might not be a clock problem      Stanley Lio      08/06/07 22:31      
      Does not work, sorry      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:31      
   Bad Connections or Crystal ?      Richard Houghton      08/07/07 08:17      
      A picture may be useful      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:28      
         Breadboards are highly unsuited for micros!!      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 10:09      
            Makes sense      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 11:48      
            breadboards are highly unsuited for ANYTHING!      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:11      
               Not at all!      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 22:26      
                  If you look at the pictures you can see why.      Richard Erlacher      08/08/07 07:24      
                     Yes, it doesn\'t look properly, but...      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 08:31      
                        It's too risky!      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 00:40      
                           What is the purpose of your posts??      Kai Klaas      08/09/07 09:30      
                              My purpose is to point out that there are flaws      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 10:43      
         *** THE PICTURES ***      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 12:04      
            Problem may be breadboard      Ralph Sac      08/07/07 12:26      
               Breadboard correction      Ralph Sac      08/07/07 16:12      
                  How I programmed the 2051      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 17:55      
               Must be continuous      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 17:23      
               there is a good english word \'IS\"      Erik Malund      08/13/07 11:11      
            I have the same thing running on my desk...      Stanley Lio      08/07/07 20:44      
               really ?      Erik Malund      08/13/07 11:41      
                  Sadly, it's a trade name      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 12:58      
                  yea, but...        Stanley Lio      08/14/07 16:31      
                     again, replacing one uncertainty with another      Erik Malund      08/15/07 07:06      
            I see two points      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 22:49      
   When you\'re ready to give up ... try this!      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:19      
      wow      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 14:10      
      use the unbuffered parts      Andy Peters      08/07/07 14:20      
         It works fine with S, LS, HC, AC, HCT, ACT, etc      Richard Erlacher      08/08/07 07:28      
            It's not so foolproof      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 09:24      
               I've had pretty good results ...      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 01:02      
   Many thanks, I'll try some of your tips...      Rubem Pechansky      08/09/07 06:23      
      Maybe your AT89C2051 is just damaged?      Kai Klaas      08/09/07 09:14      
      Overtone      Darek Rogowski      08/14/07 07:59      
      89S51/52 are much more stable      Rubem Pechansky      08/21/07 17:38      
   Can you still (re-) program it      Grant Beattie      08/16/07 10:37      
      Let's hope that Rubem will come back ...      Kai Klaas      08/16/07 22:03      
         Hi again, sorry      Rubem Pechansky      08/21/07 16:23      
            Even with no breadboard      Rubem Pechansky      09/07/07 18:25      
               What has the programmer to do with the oscillator?      Richard Erlacher      09/07/07 22:29      
      The chip is fine      Rubem Pechansky      08/21/07 17:36      
         What will that tell you about the oscillator?      Richard Erlacher      09/07/07 22:40      
            It is time to tell the manufacturer, that...      Kai Klaas      09/08/07 07:42      
               oscillator of 2051?      Jan Waclawek      09/08/07 08:48      
                  Sorry, maybe I was too harsh      Kai Klaas      09/08/07 09:02      
                     The MCU and crystals are all working for sure      Rubem Pechansky      09/08/07 12:29      
                        It was not the 7805      Rubem Pechansky      09/08/07 12:35      
                           because you shook/dropped/kicked it      Erik Malund      09/10/07 07:01      
                        7805 decoupling      Jan Waclawek      09/08/07 13:33      
                           LM79XX need a different treatment!      Kai Klaas      09/09/07 17:38      
                        Good news      Rubem Pechansky      09/08/07 14:47      
                           Is this >good news< ??      Kai Klaas      09/09/07 17:14      
                           Have you considered the "breadboard" effect?      Richard Erlacher      09/09/07 17:59      
                              Inductance      David Smith      09/10/07 04:17      
                                 Hey!      Jan Waclawek      09/10/07 04:24      
                                    So what?      Kai Klaas      09/10/07 09:01      
                                       specifically      Erik Malund      09/10/07 09:11      
                                       Let\'s not go overboard ...      Richard Erlacher      09/10/07 11:05      
                                          This does not make him learn to swim...      Kai Klaas      09/10/07 21:13      
                                             I have only my own experience ...      Richard Erlacher      09/11/07 11:22      
                                          Not Atmel problem      James Krushlucki      09/10/07 23:19      
                                          things change      Erik Malund      09/11/07 06:24      
                                             looking at the wrong characteristic      Richard Erlacher      09/11/07 11:31      
                                                OT: to Richard      Jon Ledbetter      09/11/07 11:54      
                                                   OT: I hadn\'t but I have ... Yes, I\'m interested!      Richard Erlacher      09/11/07 18:29      
                                       You are probably right      Rubem Pechansky      09/12/07 20:35      
                        do you have a 10-100nF directly across the      Erik Malund      09/10/07 06:46      
                           *** PCB and schematic ***      Rubem Pechansky      09/12/07 21:16      
                              I cannot find C1      Kai Klaas      09/12/07 21:28      
                                 Ahh, it is the supercap! Needs some changes!      Kai Klaas      09/12/07 22:07      
                                    Surprisingly It works like it is      Rubem Pechansky      09/13/07 11:01      
                                       No, no...      Kai Klaas      09/13/07 21:49      
                              I can't really 'read' your PCB but ...      Erik Malund      09/13/07 06:02      
                                 It is connected      Rubem Pechansky      09/13/07 11:04      
   Is any old recipe.      Darek Rogowski      08/21/07 05:12      

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