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Richard Erlacher
09/11/07 11:22
Read: 349 times
Denver, Co
USA


 
#144385 - I have only my own experience ...
Responding to: Kai Klaas's previous message
Kai Klaas said:
Richard said:
Is it possible that this problem stems from the fact that the MCU is from ATMEL?

Haha, it was only a question of time that you would formulate this...
No, Richard, in this forum there's a long history about failings with breadboards, not at all to do only with ATMEL's micros. Also, I don't think that it necessarily has to do with the oscillators traces. I think the whole set-up is improper, especially the power supply decoupling.

I have to agree that it's not likely that the manufacturer is at fault here. However, I'd mention that, in the 35 years or so that I've been fooling around with this sort of thing, I've had exactly one component with built-in crystal oscillator fail to oscillate. That was in the last 5 years, and I'll invite you to guess which manufacturer produced it. If the ATMEL folks had rotated the die 90 degrees counterclockwise in the lead frame, the pinout would have been much more conducive to a good oscillator layout, however. The crystal connections would have been on pins 9 and 10, so the crystal could have been mounted at the pin 10 and 11 end of the IC, and GND from pin 15 would easily route to the two cap's attached to the crystal. Marketing probably devised the DIP pinout.

Richard said:
I do recall, however, that we were able to get crystal oscillators to work just fine back in the days when we allowed 5-10 cm traces between the crystal and the active components.

No, that's too long. I know of several cases, where more than 1...2cm resulted in problems. Not only caused by the inductance of traces, but also by the current loop formed and the associated radiation. If you are lucky, your design with the 10cm long traces might work, but all application notes, dataheets and other papers demand shortest traces! I would heavily recommend the use of shortest traces for the whole oscillator section. By the way, with your 10cm design you would heavily fail the CE radiation test!!!

You're right, in that 10 cm is entirely too long. That places the crystal and/or cap's 2 inches away from the MCU's pins. However, it happened often enough and, when it did, it seems to have worked out OK. You're right, too, in that 10 cm at over 10 MHz would radiate quite a bit, hence wouldn't pass current EMC standards, but we didn't have them in the mid-'70's.

Richard said:
I'm still thoroughly convinced that the problem lies in (1) the use of the solderless breadboard, and (2) the integrity of the connections between oscillator components, i.e, cap's, crystal, and MCU.

Rubem was just reporting, that his breadboard design works, but the PCB version fails. So, what about that?

So far, one of the things on which we certainly agree is that solderless breadboards are a poor choice of prototyping environments for MCU's and for circuits operating at frequencies far above the audio range.

Richard said:
The fact that the "breadboard" circuit changes its behavior from day to day shouldn't surprise anyone. No circuit built on one of these is entirely static.

Yes, breadboards are entirely unsuited for high speed designs or fast digital circuits, because they don't allow the use of a solid ground plane but introduce lots of complex impedances.

Rubem must show us his layout to be able to find the cause of his problems. More, we could recommend him a suited layout, what I tried to do in an earlier post.

True enough, but now there's an additional question, namely what the difference between the two "breadboard" circuits is. Since a change in the wind direction, seismic activity, or phase of the moon can alter the characteristics of a "solderless breadboard" circuit, I doubt much can be learned from this.

I basically disagree with the notion that "solderless breadboards" are unsuitable for digital circuits, but I freely admit that their behavior is very much affected by the "solderless breadboard". Even with properly terminated low-impedance signals using ECL, you can observe the interaction of adjacent signals at frequencies above 10 MHz. With high-impedance circuits, e.g. ACMOS at 40 MHz, I've observed state changes repeatedly occurring when I passed my hand between the circuit under examination and an adjacent computer display. At frequencies well within the audio range, ~10 KHz, one can observe the interaction between adjacent signal paths within the "solderless breadboard" without even increasing the amplification of the signal on the 'scope display. After all, the contact-contact capacitance, at least on my "solderless breadboards" from Continental Specialties, is purported to be typically 5 pF and the capacitance of the probe is not much more than that (~8 pf).

Kai





List of 125 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
89C2051 oscillator does not oscillate (?)      Rubem Pechansky      08/06/07 17:08      
   Capacitor value?      Russell Bull      08/06/07 17:58      
      20-40pF indeed      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:00      
         it might be the crystal      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 08:05      
            Probably not      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:24      
               because it\'s crap      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 08:31      
                  Not same position      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:38      
                     one cap or two makes most probably no difference..      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 09:38      
                        Not on the pins      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 11:45      
                           I'd recomend you re-read the spec's ...      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:08      
                           It's the same Vcc      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 17:14      
                  Hhm...I wouldn't recommend this paralleling      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 09:51      
                     hummm... really? In what frequency range?      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 10:00      
                        The inductance of the left resonating with...      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 10:17      
                           interesting      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 10:35      
                        Spice models      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 08:57      
                           Thanks, Kai.      Jan Waclawek      08/08/07 09:18      
                           Numerical calculation, some examples...      Kai Klaas      08/09/07 12:09      
   Wrong reset scheme!      Kai Klaas      08/06/07 22:24      
      10µF reset capacitor to Vcc      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:06      
      Isn't that the mfg's recommended circuit?      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:10      
         Which do you mean?      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 11:43      
            10 uF to Vcc and 8.2K (built-in?) to GND      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 00:24      
               no, it is not      Erik Malund      08/13/07 11:10      
                  If it's in nearly every datasheet ...      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 12:55      
                     this is your perception of the things, Richard      Jan Waclawek      08/13/07 13:04      
                        Here we go again ...      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 18:37      
                           ... and again...      Jan Waclawek      08/13/07 23:22      
                              I don't know what to say ...      Richard Erlacher      08/14/07 02:50      
                                 there is NO out of spec power supply      Jan Waclawek      08/14/07 03:36      
                                    Not only...      Kai Klaas      08/14/07 07:34      
                                       Not allways      Daniel Contarino      08/15/07 12:24      
                                       Have you seen evidence of improvement?      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 09:55      
                                          Wider spectrum      Kai Klaas      08/19/07 11:51      
                                             maybe ratio of good/bad crystals is the same...      Jan Waclawek      08/19/07 14:16      
                                                In all the various designs I produced ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 17:10      
                                                   Never had a failure until now      Grant Beattie      08/20/07 13:16      
                                                   I know of lots of crystal problems...      Kai Klaas      08/21/07 12:02      
                                                      Could be, but I've never encountered it ...      Richard Erlacher      08/21/07 12:32      
                                                      %$#@! Double-post again ... ...      Richard Erlacher      08/21/07 12:32      
                                       ^%$#@! double-post ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 09:55      
                                    If the datasheet says 1 ms ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 09:58      
                           more about locomotives      Erik Malund      08/14/07 06:59      
                              symptoms suggest ...      Richard Erlacher      08/19/07 10:09      
                     steam locomotives      Erik Malund      08/13/07 13:15      
                        I like the steam locomotives      Jan Waclawek      08/13/07 14:26      
                           So do I      Steve M. Taylor      08/13/07 15:05      
                              me too, said the dog      Erik Malund      08/13/07 15:10      
                                 The kids should be smarter than that!      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 18:39      
                                    kids are kids      Erik Malund      08/14/07 06:46      
   It might not be a clock problem      Stanley Lio      08/06/07 22:31      
      Does not work, sorry      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:31      
   Bad Connections or Crystal ?      Richard Houghton      08/07/07 08:17      
      A picture may be useful      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 08:28      
         Breadboards are highly unsuited for micros!!      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 10:09      
            Makes sense      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 11:48      
            breadboards are highly unsuited for ANYTHING!      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:11      
               Not at all!      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 22:26      
                  If you look at the pictures you can see why.      Richard Erlacher      08/08/07 07:24      
                     Yes, it doesn\'t look properly, but...      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 08:31      
                        It's too risky!      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 00:40      
                           What is the purpose of your posts??      Kai Klaas      08/09/07 09:30      
                              My purpose is to point out that there are flaws      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 10:43      
         *** THE PICTURES ***      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 12:04      
            Problem may be breadboard      Ralph Sac      08/07/07 12:26      
               Breadboard correction      Ralph Sac      08/07/07 16:12      
                  How I programmed the 2051      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 17:55      
               Must be continuous      Rubem Pechansky      08/07/07 17:23      
               there is a good english word \'IS\"      Erik Malund      08/13/07 11:11      
            I have the same thing running on my desk...      Stanley Lio      08/07/07 20:44      
               really ?      Erik Malund      08/13/07 11:41      
                  Sadly, it's a trade name      Richard Erlacher      08/13/07 12:58      
                  yea, but...        Stanley Lio      08/14/07 16:31      
                     again, replacing one uncertainty with another      Erik Malund      08/15/07 07:06      
            I see two points      Kai Klaas      08/07/07 22:49      
   When you\'re ready to give up ... try this!      Richard Erlacher      08/07/07 13:19      
      wow      Jan Waclawek      08/07/07 14:10      
      use the unbuffered parts      Andy Peters      08/07/07 14:20      
         It works fine with S, LS, HC, AC, HCT, ACT, etc      Richard Erlacher      08/08/07 07:28      
            It's not so foolproof      Kai Klaas      08/08/07 09:24      
               I've had pretty good results ...      Richard Erlacher      08/09/07 01:02      
   Many thanks, I'll try some of your tips...      Rubem Pechansky      08/09/07 06:23      
      Maybe your AT89C2051 is just damaged?      Kai Klaas      08/09/07 09:14      
      Overtone      Darek Rogowski      08/14/07 07:59      
      89S51/52 are much more stable      Rubem Pechansky      08/21/07 17:38      
   Can you still (re-) program it      Grant Beattie      08/16/07 10:37      
      Let's hope that Rubem will come back ...      Kai Klaas      08/16/07 22:03      
         Hi again, sorry      Rubem Pechansky      08/21/07 16:23      
            Even with no breadboard      Rubem Pechansky      09/07/07 18:25      
               What has the programmer to do with the oscillator?      Richard Erlacher      09/07/07 22:29      
      The chip is fine      Rubem Pechansky      08/21/07 17:36      
         What will that tell you about the oscillator?      Richard Erlacher      09/07/07 22:40      
            It is time to tell the manufacturer, that...      Kai Klaas      09/08/07 07:42      
               oscillator of 2051?      Jan Waclawek      09/08/07 08:48      
                  Sorry, maybe I was too harsh      Kai Klaas      09/08/07 09:02      
                     The MCU and crystals are all working for sure      Rubem Pechansky      09/08/07 12:29      
                        It was not the 7805      Rubem Pechansky      09/08/07 12:35      
                           because you shook/dropped/kicked it      Erik Malund      09/10/07 07:01      
                        7805 decoupling      Jan Waclawek      09/08/07 13:33      
                           LM79XX need a different treatment!      Kai Klaas      09/09/07 17:38      
                        Good news      Rubem Pechansky      09/08/07 14:47      
                           Is this >good news< ??      Kai Klaas      09/09/07 17:14      
                           Have you considered the "breadboard" effect?      Richard Erlacher      09/09/07 17:59      
                              Inductance      David Smith      09/10/07 04:17      
                                 Hey!      Jan Waclawek      09/10/07 04:24      
                                    So what?      Kai Klaas      09/10/07 09:01      
                                       specifically      Erik Malund      09/10/07 09:11      
                                       Let\'s not go overboard ...      Richard Erlacher      09/10/07 11:05      
                                          This does not make him learn to swim...      Kai Klaas      09/10/07 21:13      
                                             I have only my own experience ...      Richard Erlacher      09/11/07 11:22      
                                          Not Atmel problem      James Krushlucki      09/10/07 23:19      
                                          things change      Erik Malund      09/11/07 06:24      
                                             looking at the wrong characteristic      Richard Erlacher      09/11/07 11:31      
                                                OT: to Richard      Jon Ledbetter      09/11/07 11:54      
                                                   OT: I hadn\'t but I have ... Yes, I\'m interested!      Richard Erlacher      09/11/07 18:29      
                                       You are probably right      Rubem Pechansky      09/12/07 20:35      
                        do you have a 10-100nF directly across the      Erik Malund      09/10/07 06:46      
                           *** PCB and schematic ***      Rubem Pechansky      09/12/07 21:16      
                              I cannot find C1      Kai Klaas      09/12/07 21:28      
                                 Ahh, it is the supercap! Needs some changes!      Kai Klaas      09/12/07 22:07      
                                    Surprisingly It works like it is      Rubem Pechansky      09/13/07 11:01      
                                       No, no...      Kai Klaas      09/13/07 21:49      
                              I can't really 'read' your PCB but ...      Erik Malund      09/13/07 06:02      
                                 It is connected      Rubem Pechansky      09/13/07 11:04      
   Is any old recipe.      Darek Rogowski      08/21/07 05:12      

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