| Richard Erlacher 09/11/07 11:22 Read: 349 times Denver, Co USA |
#144385 - I have only my own experience ... Responding to: Kai Klaas's previous message |
Kai Klaas said:
Richard said:
Is it possible that this problem stems from the fact that the MCU is from ATMEL? Haha, it was only a question of time that you would formulate this... No, Richard, in this forum there's a long history about failings with breadboards, not at all to do only with ATMEL's micros. Also, I don't think that it necessarily has to do with the oscillators traces. I think the whole set-up is improper, especially the power supply decoupling. I have to agree that it's not likely that the manufacturer is at fault here. However, I'd mention that, in the 35 years or so that I've been fooling around with this sort of thing, I've had exactly one component with built-in crystal oscillator fail to oscillate. That was in the last 5 years, and I'll invite you to guess which manufacturer produced it. If the ATMEL folks had rotated the die 90 degrees counterclockwise in the lead frame, the pinout would have been much more conducive to a good oscillator layout, however. The crystal connections would have been on pins 9 and 10, so the crystal could have been mounted at the pin 10 and 11 end of the IC, and GND from pin 15 would easily route to the two cap's attached to the crystal. Marketing probably devised the DIP pinout. Richard said:
I do recall, however, that we were able to get crystal oscillators to work just fine back in the days when we allowed 5-10 cm traces between the crystal and the active components. No, that's too long. I know of several cases, where more than 1...2cm resulted in problems. Not only caused by the inductance of traces, but also by the current loop formed and the associated radiation. If you are lucky, your design with the 10cm long traces might work, but all application notes, dataheets and other papers demand shortest traces! I would heavily recommend the use of shortest traces for the whole oscillator section. By the way, with your 10cm design you would heavily fail the CE radiation test!!! You're right, in that 10 cm is entirely too long. That places the crystal and/or cap's 2 inches away from the MCU's pins. However, it happened often enough and, when it did, it seems to have worked out OK. You're right, too, in that 10 cm at over 10 MHz would radiate quite a bit, hence wouldn't pass current EMC standards, but we didn't have them in the mid-'70's. Richard said:
I'm still thoroughly convinced that the problem lies in (1) the use of the solderless breadboard, and (2) the integrity of the connections between oscillator components, i.e, cap's, crystal, and MCU. Rubem was just reporting, that his breadboard design works, but the PCB version fails. So, what about that? So far, one of the things on which we certainly agree is that solderless breadboards are a poor choice of prototyping environments for MCU's and for circuits operating at frequencies far above the audio range. Richard said:
The fact that the "breadboard" circuit changes its behavior from day to day shouldn't surprise anyone. No circuit built on one of these is entirely static. Yes, breadboards are entirely unsuited for high speed designs or fast digital circuits, because they don't allow the use of a solid ground plane but introduce lots of complex impedances. Rubem must show us his layout to be able to find the cause of his problems. More, we could recommend him a suited layout, what I tried to do in an earlier post. True enough, but now there's an additional question, namely what the difference between the two "breadboard" circuits is. Since a change in the wind direction, seismic activity, or phase of the moon can alter the characteristics of a "solderless breadboard" circuit, I doubt much can be learned from this. I basically disagree with the notion that "solderless breadboards" are unsuitable for digital circuits, but I freely admit that their behavior is very much affected by the "solderless breadboard". Even with properly terminated low-impedance signals using ECL, you can observe the interaction of adjacent signals at frequencies above 10 MHz. With high-impedance circuits, e.g. ACMOS at 40 MHz, I've observed state changes repeatedly occurring when I passed my hand between the circuit under examination and an adjacent computer display. At frequencies well within the audio range, ~10 KHz, one can observe the interaction between adjacent signal paths within the "solderless breadboard" without even increasing the amplification of the signal on the 'scope display. After all, the contact-contact capacitance, at least on my "solderless breadboards" from Continental Specialties, is purported to be typically 5 pF and the capacitance of the probe is not much more than that (~8 pf). Kai |
| Topic | Author | Date |
| 89C2051 oscillator does not oscillate (?) | Rubem Pechansky | 08/06/07 17:08 |
| Capacitor value? | Russell Bull | 08/06/07 17:58 |
| 20-40pF indeed | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 08:00 |
| it might be the crystal | Jan Waclawek | 08/07/07 08:05 |
| Probably not | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 08:24 |
| because it\'s crap | Jan Waclawek | 08/07/07 08:31 |
| Not same position | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 08:38 |
| one cap or two makes most probably no difference.. | Jan Waclawek | 08/07/07 09:38 |
| Not on the pins | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 11:45 |
| I'd recomend you re-read the spec's ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/07/07 13:08 |
| It's the same Vcc | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 17:14 |
| Hhm...I wouldn't recommend this paralleling | Kai Klaas | 08/07/07 09:51 |
| hummm... really? In what frequency range? | Jan Waclawek | 08/07/07 10:00 |
| The inductance of the left resonating with... | Kai Klaas | 08/07/07 10:17 |
| interesting | Jan Waclawek | 08/07/07 10:35 |
| Spice models | Kai Klaas | 08/08/07 08:57 |
| Thanks, Kai. | Jan Waclawek | 08/08/07 09:18 |
| Numerical calculation, some examples... | Kai Klaas | 08/09/07 12:09 |
| Wrong reset scheme! | Kai Klaas | 08/06/07 22:24 |
| 10µF reset capacitor to Vcc | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 08:06 |
| Isn't that the mfg's recommended circuit? | Richard Erlacher | 08/07/07 13:10 |
| Which do you mean? | Kai Klaas | 08/08/07 11:43 |
| 10 uF to Vcc and 8.2K (built-in?) to GND | Richard Erlacher | 08/09/07 00:24 |
| no, it is not | Erik Malund | 08/13/07 11:10 |
| If it's in nearly every datasheet ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/13/07 12:55 |
| this is your perception of the things, Richard | Jan Waclawek | 08/13/07 13:04 |
| Here we go again ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/13/07 18:37 |
| ... and again... | Jan Waclawek | 08/13/07 23:22 |
| I don't know what to say ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/14/07 02:50 |
| there is NO out of spec power supply | Jan Waclawek | 08/14/07 03:36 |
| Not only... | Kai Klaas | 08/14/07 07:34 |
| Not allways | Daniel Contarino | 08/15/07 12:24 |
| Have you seen evidence of improvement? | Richard Erlacher | 08/19/07 09:55 |
| Wider spectrum | Kai Klaas | 08/19/07 11:51 |
| maybe ratio of good/bad crystals is the same... | Jan Waclawek | 08/19/07 14:16 |
| In all the various designs I produced ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/19/07 17:10 |
| Never had a failure until now | Grant Beattie | 08/20/07 13:16 |
| I know of lots of crystal problems... | Kai Klaas | 08/21/07 12:02 |
| Could be, but I've never encountered it ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/21/07 12:32 |
| %$#@! Double-post again ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/21/07 12:32 |
| ^%$#@! double-post ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/19/07 09:55 |
| If the datasheet says 1 ms ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/19/07 09:58 |
| more about locomotives | Erik Malund | 08/14/07 06:59 |
| symptoms suggest ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/19/07 10:09 |
| steam locomotives | Erik Malund | 08/13/07 13:15 |
| I like the steam locomotives | Jan Waclawek | 08/13/07 14:26 |
| So do I | Steve M. Taylor | 08/13/07 15:05 |
| me too, said the dog | Erik Malund | 08/13/07 15:10 |
| The kids should be smarter than that! | Richard Erlacher | 08/13/07 18:39 |
| kids are kids | Erik Malund | 08/14/07 06:46 |
| It might not be a clock problem | Stanley Lio | 08/06/07 22:31 |
| Does not work, sorry | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 08:31 |
| Bad Connections or Crystal ? | Richard Houghton | 08/07/07 08:17 |
| A picture may be useful | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 08:28 |
| Breadboards are highly unsuited for micros!! | Kai Klaas | 08/07/07 10:09 |
| Makes sense | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 11:48 |
| breadboards are highly unsuited for ANYTHING! | Richard Erlacher | 08/07/07 13:11 |
| Not at all! | Kai Klaas | 08/07/07 22:26 |
| If you look at the pictures you can see why. | Richard Erlacher | 08/08/07 07:24 |
| Yes, it doesn\'t look properly, but... | Kai Klaas | 08/08/07 08:31 |
| It's too risky! | Richard Erlacher | 08/09/07 00:40 |
| What is the purpose of your posts?? | Kai Klaas | 08/09/07 09:30 |
| My purpose is to point out that there are flaws | Richard Erlacher | 08/09/07 10:43 |
| *** THE PICTURES *** | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 12:04 |
| Problem may be breadboard | Ralph Sac | 08/07/07 12:26 |
| Breadboard correction | Ralph Sac | 08/07/07 16:12 |
| How I programmed the 2051 | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 17:55 |
| Must be continuous | Rubem Pechansky | 08/07/07 17:23 |
| there is a good english word \'IS\" | Erik Malund | 08/13/07 11:11 |
| I have the same thing running on my desk... | Stanley Lio | 08/07/07 20:44 |
| really ? | Erik Malund | 08/13/07 11:41 |
| Sadly, it's a trade name | Richard Erlacher | 08/13/07 12:58 |
| yea, but... | Stanley Lio | 08/14/07 16:31 |
| again, replacing one uncertainty with another | Erik Malund | 08/15/07 07:06 |
| I see two points | Kai Klaas | 08/07/07 22:49 |
| When you\'re ready to give up ... try this! | Richard Erlacher | 08/07/07 13:19 |
| wow | Jan Waclawek | 08/07/07 14:10 |
| use the unbuffered parts | Andy Peters | 08/07/07 14:20 |
| It works fine with S, LS, HC, AC, HCT, ACT, etc | Richard Erlacher | 08/08/07 07:28 |
| It's not so foolproof | Kai Klaas | 08/08/07 09:24 |
| I've had pretty good results ... | Richard Erlacher | 08/09/07 01:02 |
| Many thanks, I'll try some of your tips... | Rubem Pechansky | 08/09/07 06:23 |
| Maybe your AT89C2051 is just damaged? | Kai Klaas | 08/09/07 09:14 |
| Overtone | Darek Rogowski | 08/14/07 07:59 |
| 89S51/52 are much more stable | Rubem Pechansky | 08/21/07 17:38 |
| Can you still (re-) program it | Grant Beattie | 08/16/07 10:37 |
| Let's hope that Rubem will come back ... | Kai Klaas | 08/16/07 22:03 |
| Hi again, sorry | Rubem Pechansky | 08/21/07 16:23 |
| Even with no breadboard | Rubem Pechansky | 09/07/07 18:25 |
| What has the programmer to do with the oscillator? | Richard Erlacher | 09/07/07 22:29 |
| The chip is fine | Rubem Pechansky | 08/21/07 17:36 |
| What will that tell you about the oscillator? | Richard Erlacher | 09/07/07 22:40 |
| It is time to tell the manufacturer, that... | Kai Klaas | 09/08/07 07:42 |
| oscillator of 2051? | Jan Waclawek | 09/08/07 08:48 |
| Sorry, maybe I was too harsh | Kai Klaas | 09/08/07 09:02 |
| The MCU and crystals are all working for sure | Rubem Pechansky | 09/08/07 12:29 |
| It was not the 7805 | Rubem Pechansky | 09/08/07 12:35 |
| because you shook/dropped/kicked it | Erik Malund | 09/10/07 07:01 |
| 7805 decoupling | Jan Waclawek | 09/08/07 13:33 |
| LM79XX need a different treatment! | Kai Klaas | 09/09/07 17:38 |
| Good news | Rubem Pechansky | 09/08/07 14:47 |
| Is this >good news< ?? | Kai Klaas | 09/09/07 17:14 |
| Have you considered the "breadboard" effect? | Richard Erlacher | 09/09/07 17:59 |
| Inductance | David Smith | 09/10/07 04:17 |
| Hey! | Jan Waclawek | 09/10/07 04:24 |
| So what? | Kai Klaas | 09/10/07 09:01 |
| specifically | Erik Malund | 09/10/07 09:11 |
| Let\'s not go overboard ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/10/07 11:05 |
| This does not make him learn to swim... | Kai Klaas | 09/10/07 21:13 |
| I have only my own experience ... | Richard Erlacher | 09/11/07 11:22 |
| Not Atmel problem | James Krushlucki | 09/10/07 23:19 |
| things change | Erik Malund | 09/11/07 06:24 |
| looking at the wrong characteristic | Richard Erlacher | 09/11/07 11:31 |
| OT: to Richard | Jon Ledbetter | 09/11/07 11:54 |
| OT: I hadn\'t but I have ... Yes, I\'m interested! | Richard Erlacher | 09/11/07 18:29 |
| You are probably right | Rubem Pechansky | 09/12/07 20:35 |
| do you have a 10-100nF directly across the | Erik Malund | 09/10/07 06:46 |
| *** PCB and schematic *** | Rubem Pechansky | 09/12/07 21:16 |
| I cannot find C1 | Kai Klaas | 09/12/07 21:28 |
| Ahh, it is the supercap! Needs some changes! | Kai Klaas | 09/12/07 22:07 |
| Surprisingly It works like it is | Rubem Pechansky | 09/13/07 11:01 |
No, no... | Kai Klaas | 09/13/07 21:49 |
| I can't really 'read' your PCB but ... | Erik Malund | 09/13/07 06:02 |
| It is connected | Rubem Pechansky | 09/13/07 11:04 |
| Is any old recipe. | Darek Rogowski | 08/21/07 05:12 |



