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Richard Erlacher
03/14/10 19:32
Read: 160 times
Denver, Co
USA


 
#174136 - There are many things for which USB is unsuited
Responding to: Per Westermark's previous message
That was my point. So what's happened is that the industry, in their infinite wisdom has opted to replace several interfaces that worked very well with one that doesn't work very well for many things.

As a consequence, we have no reliable serial ports, no reliable parallel ports, and quite dodgy "other things" that cause problems.

Printers via USB aren't reliable, nor are they particularly useable outside the PC environment, though keyboards and mice interfaced with USB haven't messed me up yet in the PC environment. The widespread use of USB has allowed printer manufacturers to steal bandwidth from the PC in order to reduce their cost. Unfortunately, the result is that you nearly can't buy a printer to use with your MCU. What was the last serially or parallel interfaced printer that you could buy for use with a simple MCU? What did it cost? Those $90 PC printers won't work with your 805x, and, unless you spend quite a little time, effort, and money, you won't be able to use one with the typical MCU of any flavor. You're stuck with a USB-host-capable MCU and a HUGE task of coding for that printer. Try it sometime.

Per Westermark said:
A UART does work for fixed-data rate asynchronous data.
A USART does work for fixed-data rate synchronous data.
No difference - just a back-end bus with enough bandwidth, and a FIFO to let the PC burst the data.

And that was my other point. That 2-second, and sometimes 2-minute timeout that the PC imposes on your traffic requires a very, Very large FIFO. Where would you get such a FIFO? Methinks you'd have to build it yourself. Now ... Where will you get a USART of any sort these days? It's hard enough getting a UART. Philips used to build a nice 24-pin UART with a built-in baud rate generator. They don't offer it any longer. The ones in the old PC's aren't adequate to the task, but even if they were, how would you hook one up to today's USB-interfaced serial adapters, most of which don't even work with the ISP software from various '52 makers.

When discussing USB-to-serial or USB-to parallel you really have to separate issues with USB from your issues with a PC. Remember that USB has a 1ms cycle time, so it will not be able to match the reaction times of the handshake lines of a native serial port. That is a limitation of the USB bus, and not of the PC it is connected to. Use a PCI-connected serial port if you want lower latency.

... and how do you do that with a USB-provisioned notebook?

And same thing with a USB-to-parallel interface. It is not an adapter that gives a compatible Centronics interface. It is a USB-to-printer interface, and it only works with standard drivers and standard printers. Programs expecting direct access to the signals will fail since the interface just can't transfer the commands with zero lag.

True, in that you've stated the problem. There's no solution, though.

But while a USB-connected interface does suffer from latencies because of the design of the USB protocol, it can still manage quite high synchronous data rates with a bit of buffering in the USB device. The PC can't guarantee us reaction times to everything that happens, but stepping back into the ms range, it can do very well. And it doesn't take much memory for a FIFO to span milliseconds.

I can stream bluray HD video continuously without any problems. 30GB of data to be played in 2 hours is 4MB/S OR 32Mbit/s. The peak requirements are higher.

By the way: if you do want 45Mbit/s - don't use 12Mbit/s USB. 480Mbit/s does have the bandwidth to keep a FIFO filled with capacity to spare. Windows manages to push > 30MB/s continuously. 40MB/s if switching from USB to 400Mbit/s FW.


I believe I've already explained why that isn't true ...

RE


List of 83 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
ready made board with 2 UARTs equipped ..      Erik Malund      01/27/10 09:00      
   Send me details      Joseph Hebert      01/27/10 19:27      
   SiLabs kit      Andy Neil      01/28/10 01:33      
      they don't, but      Erik Malund      01/28/10 04:50      
   Can you give more details ?      Kiran V. Sutar      01/28/10 04:17      
      if it was to be made, I need no assistance since ...      Erik Malund      01/28/10 04:46      
         ...and I thought Price was the issue...      Kiran V. Sutar      01/29/10 09:50      
   One Suggestion      Mahesh Joshi      02/03/10 08:05      
      the MX chips are being phased out      Erik Malund      02/03/10 08:27      
   I sent you email      Grant Beattie      02/03/10 15:46      
      read, answered, thanks      Erik Malund      02/03/10 18:25      
   you can use sm5964      Michael Ma      02/11/10 01:18      
      the idea was stated as...      Erik Malund      02/12/10 07:57      
         It is a suggestion      Michael Ma      02/27/10 22:09      
            Not a good idea      Andy Neil      02/28/10 01:11      
            that it is      Erik Malund      02/28/10 08:09      
   How about Phycore?      AP Charles      02/12/10 08:39      
      Legacy Product      Andy Neil      02/12/10 09:08      
         oh, yes      Erik Malund      02/12/10 09:42      
            Have a look at grifo      AP Charles      02/12/10 09:57      
   This looks good too      AP Charles      02/12/10 08:49      
   I've been wondering ...      Richard Erlacher      02/28/10 01:16      
      Likewise      Andy Neil      02/28/10 02:34      
         Maybe, but who makes 'em?      Richard Erlacher      02/28/10 09:38      
            8052 with only 1 UART      Andy Neil      02/28/10 11:15      
               I'm surprised, but that's the case!      Richard Erlacher      03/01/10 01:08      
                  why surprised?      Erik Malund      03/01/10 07:35      
                     That's what I thought      Andy Neil      03/01/10 07:49      
                     I never thought of it in those terms ...      Richard Erlacher      03/01/10 08:20      
                        comments      Erik Malund      03/01/10 08:47      
                           It could be done with two wires and 2-UART MCU      Richard Erlacher      03/01/10 12:41      
      120 devboards ...      Erik Malund      02/28/10 07:05      
         How difficult or costly would it be to add one?      Richard Erlacher      02/28/10 09:40      
            neither difficult nor costly      Erik Malund      02/28/10 18:31      
         SILABs 040 has 2 uarts on it      Marshall Brown      03/15/10 19:58      
   with ds89c450 or 430      JecksonS Ben      02/28/10 20:06      
      But that's a chip - not a board!      Andy Neil      03/01/10 01:50      
         cheap boards      JecksonS Ben      03/01/10 19:49      
            this is what's meant      Richard Erlacher      03/01/10 23:40      
               No RS485      Andy Neil      03/02/10 02:26      
                  Example      Andy Neil      03/02/10 03:35      
                     bad example      Jan Waclawek      03/02/10 04:02      
                        No - excellent example!      Andy Neil      03/02/10 05:29      
                           likewise with that other board ...      Richard Erlacher      03/02/10 10:01      
                           And did *you* know what are you looking for?      Jan Waclawek      03/02/10 13:30      
                              You got it      Andy Neil      03/02/10 14:34      
                  why "never"?      Jan Waclawek      03/02/10 03:58      
                     the PC's not the best example ...      Richard Erlacher      03/02/10 10:17      
                        PC as an example      Jan Waclawek      03/02/10 13:21      
                           Lots of toys ... little of any practical use.      Richard Erlacher      03/02/10 17:59      
                              Different tools can be used in different ways      Per Westermark      03/12/10 13:11      
                                 where is your head wedged?      Richard Erlacher      03/13/10 19:47      
                                    Don't blame the PC for solving wrong things with USB      Per Westermark      03/13/10 20:31      
                                       There are many things for which USB is unsuited      Richard Erlacher      03/14/10 19:32      
                                          Every change since 1980 isn't for the worse        Per Westermark      03/14/10 23:02      
                                             Maybe, but this one is      Richard Erlacher      03/15/10 12:00      
                                                again      Andy Peters      03/15/10 13:02      
                                                   Thta's what you say ...      Richard Erlacher      03/16/10 02:56      
                                                      that's what you always say      Andy Peters      03/16/10 12:04      
                                                         Where you sit determines what you see      Richard Erlacher      03/17/10 12:02      
                                                            Where did you sit?      Per Westermark      03/17/10 12:37      
                                                   SPI solves completely different problem than HDLC      Per Westermark      03/18/10 08:50      
                                                and again      Stefan KAnev      03/15/10 13:37      
                                                   what about the required size of the driver?      Richard Erlacher      03/16/10 02:48      
                                                      required size of driver      Stefan KAnev      03/16/10 07:32      
                                                         What do you mean by PCL Cost?      Richard Erlacher      03/17/10 12:04      
                                                            price difference between similar printers -      Stefan KAnev      03/17/10 13:16      
                                                Define narrow view - I see oportunities, i.e. the reverse      Per Westermark      03/15/10 13:42      
                                                   not relevant      Richard Erlacher      03/16/10 02:59      
                                                      So the Windows driver didn't list 8051 compatibility???      Per Westermark      03/16/10 03:47      
                                          I vote Richard as president for ...      Erik Malund      03/15/10 13:20      
                                             That's what one would expect from you, Erik      Richard Erlacher      03/16/10 03:00      
                              USB and fixed-rate transfer      Andy Peters      03/15/10 12:50      
                                 Fortunately, there's DOS ...      Richard Erlacher      03/16/10 03:07      
                        Linux - I thought as much      Andy Neil      03/03/10 01:07      
                        PCs        Andy Peters      03/15/10 12:48      
                           you forgot about LINUX      Richard Erlacher      03/16/10 03:20      
   By this time, anybody could have built one...      Kiran V. Sutar      03/02/10 03:11      
      Funnily enough, ...      Andy Neil      03/02/10 03:33      
      no      Erik Malund      03/02/10 08:06      
   I Hate to ask this....      Justin Fontes      03/13/10 01:44      
      A *very* common requirement!      Andy Neil      03/13/10 02:05      
      if indeed      Erik Malund      03/13/10 07:08      

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