| Per Westermark 03/14/10 23:02 Read: 175 times Sweden Msg Score: +1 +1 Informative |
#174137 - Every change since 1980 isn't for the worse Responding to: Richard Erlacher's previous message |
Richard said:
That was my point. So what's happened is that the industry, in their infinite wisdom has opted to replace several interfaces that worked very well with one that doesn't work very well for many things. How much time did you spend looking at the problem from the other direction? The industry have noted that the USB interface can be used for a lot of things that the older interfaces can not be used for. The industry moved from DC power in the wall sockets too, despite this not being compatible with all existing equipment. Sometimes, it is well worth taking a step backwards because you will then be able to take 5 steps forward. You are among the fraction of a percent who sees USB as a step backwards. The majority of users only sees advantages. So the industry, in their infinite wisdom, is making a lot of money by supplying what the customer wants. Richard said:
As a consequence, we have no reliable serial ports, no reliable parallel ports, and quite dodgy "other things" that cause problems. As a consequence, there have been produced a huge amount of devices that don't need RS232 or IEEE 1284 or similar. And many of these new devices can - thanks to the USB interface - do new things that wasn't possible with the previous generation. Lots of people loves host-powered devices. Lots of people love the plug-and-play. Lots of people love the much, much higher transfer rates. Lots of people love a machine with maybe 14 identical connectors, instead of just one or two RS232 interfaces and a need for 9-to-25 pin converters and cables and straight and cross-over cables. Lots of people love that not only the electrical interface, but also the protocols, have been standardized. Lots of people love that they can now use a HUB if they want many connectors close to their keyboard or monitor. Or that they can use a single cable to transfer - concurrently - sound, key presses, mouse data, ... Yes, the industry have really gone the wrong way, in their infinite wisdom. How can they have selected to move to an interface that the majority of users love, and where you don't have to set a number of straps somewhere on the motherboard or plug-in board to get the interrupts to match the relevant port address? 1) You have more choices than just USB if you don't limit yourself to laptop computers. 2) USB printers are not less reliable. Their MTBF are not affected by the interface. And the USB interface is most definitely capable of supplying the information to print. The only disadvantage for a hobbyist is that it isn't easy to send data to the printer from a non-Windows environment. But that is a completely different issue. 3) Steal bandwidth from the PC? What bandwidth? USB bandwidth? A PC can have many host controllers - each of which can manage its own bandwidth. And you can't really say that a USB printer - even if it relies on the PC to build the bitmap - does steal any CPU power from a recent PC. 4) If you don't like win-printers - how about selecting a printer that uses HP-PCL? You can do a lot of fun with a microcontroller and a printer that is using PCL. And you can also do a lot of fun things with a PS-capable printer. And you can still buy an Epson or maybe Oki Microline matrix printer with your favourite interface. So you complain that the $90 printer is too cheap, but ignores the existing printers that does exactly what they did 20 years ago. Richard said:
And that was my other point. That 2-second, and sometimes 2-minute timeout that the PC imposes on your traffic requires a very, Very large FIFO. Hire someone to come and fix your computers. There are no 2-second or 2-minute timeout. Not unless your machine or your OS installation is broken. I have transmitted TB of information where the PC have been either the source or the target, and not seen anything close to your troubles. Or maybe your software is broken? Richard said:
Where will you get a USART of any sort these days? If interfacing to a PC, I would normally get me a USART integrated into a cheap and nice microcontroller. They are excellent for interfacing between two different interface types. Richard said:
... and how do you do that with a USB-provisioned notebook? Maybe you should buy a real computer instead of a laptop? A laptop is optimized to be small and easy to carry around. A statinary computer is optimized to be extendable, and to have a lot of connectors. A professional laptop can normally be docked to a docking station. Or look for PCMCIA/Expresscard alternatives. Don't see problems all the time. See opportinities. Richard said:
True, in that you've stated the problem. There's no solution, though. Of course there is - use PCI, PCMCIA, Expresscard, ... It might surprise you, but there are alternatives to USB. You are as busy at finding problems with USB as some people were when they where using RS232 or the Centronics interface to network two computers. It isn't the interface that is at error, if you try to abuse the wrong interface to solve something it isn't intended for - especially when there are alternatives. Richard said:
I believe I've already explained why that isn't true ... Well, you have somehow "explained" that what people are already doing doesn't work. Strange then, that people are already doing it. But then again - if you do select 12Mbit/s USB and try to send out a 45MBit/s stream, then you will obviously need an infinite FIFO. So what was wrong with looking at a processor that can handle 480Mbit/s? Yes - 8051 chips with that support are pretty scarce. But that is a limitation with the 8051 chips, and not something you should blame on the USB standard or the current PC architecture. Everytime your 8051 chip doesn't interface well with something, you blame that other device. One reason that ARM chips have taken so much market share is that the manufacturers looks at peoples needs and then makes sure that the ARM chips are compatible with the devices people want to connect them to. There is nothing wrong with using 8051 chips for solving problems, as long as you realize that it has limitations, and that you can't blame the rest of the world whenever you suffer from one such limitation. Billions of dollars of USB-based hardware is shipped every year, so obviously USB does work. Don't blame the industry for betting on a winning horse. Instead consider how you can get some juicy piece from that huge pie. Step one is probably to figure out what is wrong with your computers. Are your HDD working well, without CRC errors or sector re-reads? And no problems with page swapping? No old and and badly written OS driver that locks the machine for long periods of time in some critical section? |
| Topic | Author | Date |
| ready made board with 2 UARTs equipped .. | Erik Malund | 01/27/10 09:00 |
| Send me details | Joseph Hebert | 01/27/10 19:27 |
| SiLabs kit | Andy Neil | 01/28/10 01:33 |
| they don't, but | Erik Malund | 01/28/10 04:50 |
| Can you give more details ? | Kiran V. Sutar | 01/28/10 04:17 |
| if it was to be made, I need no assistance since ... | Erik Malund | 01/28/10 04:46 |
| ...and I thought Price was the issue... | Kiran V. Sutar | 01/29/10 09:50 |
| One Suggestion | Mahesh Joshi | 02/03/10 08:05 |
| the MX chips are being phased out | Erik Malund | 02/03/10 08:27 |
| I sent you email | Grant Beattie | 02/03/10 15:46 |
| read, answered, thanks | Erik Malund | 02/03/10 18:25 |
| you can use sm5964 | Michael Ma | 02/11/10 01:18 |
| the idea was stated as... | Erik Malund | 02/12/10 07:57 |
| It is a suggestion | Michael Ma | 02/27/10 22:09 |
| Not a good idea | Andy Neil | 02/28/10 01:11 |
| that it is | Erik Malund | 02/28/10 08:09 |
| How about Phycore? | AP Charles | 02/12/10 08:39 |
| Legacy Product | Andy Neil | 02/12/10 09:08 |
| oh, yes | Erik Malund | 02/12/10 09:42 |
| Have a look at grifo | AP Charles | 02/12/10 09:57 |
| This looks good too | AP Charles | 02/12/10 08:49 |
| I've been wondering ... | Richard Erlacher | 02/28/10 01:16 |
| Likewise | Andy Neil | 02/28/10 02:34 |
| Maybe, but who makes 'em? | Richard Erlacher | 02/28/10 09:38 |
| 8052 with only 1 UART | Andy Neil | 02/28/10 11:15 |
| I'm surprised, but that's the case! | Richard Erlacher | 03/01/10 01:08 |
| why surprised? | Erik Malund | 03/01/10 07:35 |
| That's what I thought | Andy Neil | 03/01/10 07:49 |
| I never thought of it in those terms ... | Richard Erlacher | 03/01/10 08:20 |
| comments | Erik Malund | 03/01/10 08:47 |
| It could be done with two wires and 2-UART MCU | Richard Erlacher | 03/01/10 12:41 |
| 120 devboards ... | Erik Malund | 02/28/10 07:05 |
| How difficult or costly would it be to add one? | Richard Erlacher | 02/28/10 09:40 |
| neither difficult nor costly | Erik Malund | 02/28/10 18:31 |
| SILABs 040 has 2 uarts on it | Marshall Brown | 03/15/10 19:58 |
| with ds89c450 or 430 | JecksonS Ben | 02/28/10 20:06 |
| But that's a chip - not a board! | Andy Neil | 03/01/10 01:50 |
| cheap boards | JecksonS Ben | 03/01/10 19:49 |
| this is what's meant | Richard Erlacher | 03/01/10 23:40 |
| No RS485 | Andy Neil | 03/02/10 02:26 |
| Example | Andy Neil | 03/02/10 03:35 |
| bad example | Jan Waclawek | 03/02/10 04:02 |
| No - excellent example! | Andy Neil | 03/02/10 05:29 |
| likewise with that other board ... | Richard Erlacher | 03/02/10 10:01 |
| And did *you* know what are you looking for? | Jan Waclawek | 03/02/10 13:30 |
| You got it | Andy Neil | 03/02/10 14:34 |
| why "never"? | Jan Waclawek | 03/02/10 03:58 |
| the PC's not the best example ... | Richard Erlacher | 03/02/10 10:17 |
| PC as an example | Jan Waclawek | 03/02/10 13:21 |
| Lots of toys ... little of any practical use. | Richard Erlacher | 03/02/10 17:59 |
| Different tools can be used in different ways | Per Westermark | 03/12/10 13:11 |
| where is your head wedged? | Richard Erlacher | 03/13/10 19:47 |
| Don't blame the PC for solving wrong things with USB | Per Westermark | 03/13/10 20:31 |
| There are many things for which USB is unsuited | Richard Erlacher | 03/14/10 19:32 |
| Every change since 1980 isn't for the worse | Per Westermark | 03/14/10 23:02 |
| Maybe, but this one is | Richard Erlacher | 03/15/10 12:00 |
| again | Andy Peters | 03/15/10 13:02 |
| Thta's what you say ... | Richard Erlacher | 03/16/10 02:56 |
| that's what you always say | Andy Peters | 03/16/10 12:04 |
| Where you sit determines what you see | Richard Erlacher | 03/17/10 12:02 |
| Where did you sit? | Per Westermark | 03/17/10 12:37 |
SPI solves completely different problem than HDLC | Per Westermark | 03/18/10 08:50 |
| and again | Stefan KAnev | 03/15/10 13:37 |
| what about the required size of the driver? | Richard Erlacher | 03/16/10 02:48 |
| required size of driver | Stefan KAnev | 03/16/10 07:32 |
| What do you mean by PCL Cost? | Richard Erlacher | 03/17/10 12:04 |
| price difference between similar printers - | Stefan KAnev | 03/17/10 13:16 |
| Define narrow view - I see oportunities, i.e. the reverse | Per Westermark | 03/15/10 13:42 |
| not relevant | Richard Erlacher | 03/16/10 02:59 |
| So the Windows driver didn't list 8051 compatibility??? | Per Westermark | 03/16/10 03:47 |
| I vote Richard as president for ... | Erik Malund | 03/15/10 13:20 |
| That's what one would expect from you, Erik | Richard Erlacher | 03/16/10 03:00 |
| USB and fixed-rate transfer | Andy Peters | 03/15/10 12:50 |
| Fortunately, there's DOS ... | Richard Erlacher | 03/16/10 03:07 |
| Linux - I thought as much | Andy Neil | 03/03/10 01:07 |
| PCs | Andy Peters | 03/15/10 12:48 |
| you forgot about LINUX | Richard Erlacher | 03/16/10 03:20 |
| By this time, anybody could have built one... | Kiran V. Sutar | 03/02/10 03:11 |
| Funnily enough, ... | Andy Neil | 03/02/10 03:33 |
| no | Erik Malund | 03/02/10 08:06 |
| I Hate to ask this.... | Justin Fontes | 03/13/10 01:44 |
| A *very* common requirement! | Andy Neil | 03/13/10 02:05 |
| if indeed | Erik Malund | 03/13/10 07:08 |



