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Per Westermark
12/27/10 07:40
Read: 1280 times
Sweden


 
#180297 - Second source not so important anymore
Responding to: Richard Erlacher's previous message
Richard said:
The fact that the architecture is single-sourced should give any developer pause.

Not so sure.

If you look around, you'll find that a huge percentage of all electronics in production contains a number of single-source components.

Since a number of years, the sharing of designs between manufacturers have almost totally died away.

So the electronics may contain single-sourced DC/DC converters from Linear. Single-sourced ARM chips from NXP. Single-sourced CAN transceivers from xx. Single-sourced FECs from ...

30 years ago, you produced a product for 10 years or more with zero hardware changes.

Today, you redesign the same product every 12 to 24 months, because you need to make use of the latest components just to cut costs. Producing the same hardware for 10 years will not let you cut the production prices with 20-30% each year. Something you need to do today, just to be able to keep your market shares without having to sell at a loss.

It is fewer and fewer niches where you can charge stiff overprices for a product just because you call it "industrial".

So what does it matter if the CAN controller has multiple sources? The CAN controller gets thrown away and moved into the processor, just requiring a trasceiver chip outside. The network controllers gets moved into the processor. The memory gets moved inside. The external UARTS gets integrated. The prioritizing interrupt controller.

In the end, we end up with very few chips driven by C or C++ programs (to make sure that as few lines of code as possible needs to be rewritten when changing target hardware). And the main difference in quality is the design of the power supply and how well all inputs/outputs are isolated and protected.

But in the end - todays product cycles are not so affected by second source supplies. A far worse problem is delays in availability of the new components, since each new hw revision brings in one or more components that are in alpha or beta stage when the development starts, and that will go "live" about the same time as the product is about to start being manufactured. So while backup plans for phased out components was very important 20 years ago, backup plans for delayed introduction of components may be more important today.

One thing that follows from the above, is that you need to have quite large market shares, since you can't live 10 years on your product certifications. You need a large yearly volume to take the cost of constantly having products tested according to different standards.

About Atmel - my worst problem with them was that we had to make do with Mega48 chips because their Mega88 chip got significantly delayed. No fun to have to squeeze the program in to 50% flash, 50% RAM, 50% EEPROM when you had originally selected the Mega88 as the best fit... It seriously hurt the maintainability of the software.

List of 103 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Migrating to AVR      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 10:02      
   8051-replacement      Andy Neil      12/06/10 11:37      
      Yep, I agree      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 13:47      
         Toolchain      Andy Neil      12/06/10 14:41      
            free compilers      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 15:32      
               GCC      Andy Neil      12/07/10 00:24      
               Free ARM compilers      Oliver Sedlacek      12/07/10 07:14      
                  "Free" vs "Free"      Andy Neil      12/07/10 07:54      
   faster '51 derivatives in DIL/PLCC & availability      Jan Waclawek      12/06/10 13:26      
      Tired of hanging around with 5 mips      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 14:04      
         Re: Tired of hanging around with 5 Mips      Valentin Angelovski      12/06/10 17:59      
            experiences prototyping with smd's      Andy Neil      12/07/10 00:09      
               Prototype SMD      Oliver Sedlacek      12/07/10 09:24      
            Nice, but where to buy and how much?      Jason Arkwright      12/07/10 04:57      
               Re: where to buy and how much?      Valentin Angelovski      12/07/10 07:48      
                  Yeah, but....      Jason Arkwright      12/07/10 08:36      
                     I agree      Valentin Angelovski      12/07/10 17:11      
                        re the XA      Erik Malund      12/08/10 06:39      
                     How many 51' compilers make use of the 51's dual DPTR      Andy Neil      12/07/10 17:54      
               You must live on a very interesting corner!      Andy Neil      12/07/10 07:55      
                  Ha,ha, AVR are ubiquitus      Jason Arkwright      12/07/10 08:22      
                     HUH??      Erik Malund      12/07/10 08:36      
                        Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics      Andy Neil      12/07/10 09:08      
                           I think      Erik Malund      12/07/10 12:01      
                        'F120      Andy Peters      12/07/10 10:36      
                           "bunchload"      Andy Neil      12/07/10 11:35      
                              re: bunchload      Andy Peters      12/08/10 09:28      
                                 Youse guys in Old Blightly        Andy Neil      12/08/10 10:04      
         Prototyping SMD's      John D. Maniraj      12/07/10 00:58      
            Hand-made PCBs with hand-soldered SMDs      Andy Neil      05/04/11 08:30      
            SMD's      Jerry Hudson      05/08/11 09:24      
               Well, that's nice, but not necessary.      Richard Erlacher      05/09/11 09:42      
            a very general - and accurate - comment ...      Erik Malund      05/11/11 07:14      
               apprehension      Andy Neil      05/11/11 07:33      
   nearby      JecksonS Ben      12/07/10 22:12      
      'jumping' from the '51      Erik Malund      12/08/10 06:52      
         AVR update      Jason Arkwright      12/18/10 07:43      
            the chip does not crash      Andy Neil      12/18/10 11:34      
               Lockup etc      Per Westermark      12/18/10 13:41      
                  increase the clock until lockup      Jason Arkwright      12/18/10 15:50      
                     undefined behaviour      Andy Neil      12/18/10 16:24      
                     NO, they do not recommend it      Erik Malund      12/18/10 16:27      
                        simultaneous posts      Erik Malund      12/18/10 16:28      
                           Overclocking        Per Westermark      12/19/10 04:30      
                     This is simply an error in judgment        Richard Erlacher      12/19/10 09:38      
                        all bets are off      Andy Neil      12/20/10 01:19      
                     overclocking        Andy Peters      12/22/10 09:27      
                        Yeah, okay      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 10:31      
                           Neeed for speeed      Andy Neil      12/22/10 10:56      
                              Because of this...      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 16:55      
                                 Missing the point      Andy Neil      12/22/10 17:16      
                                    missing the point?      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 17:46      
                                       Modern derivatives      Andy Neil      12/23/10 01:02      
                                 hogwash      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:22      
                                 I'm not sure you're on track here ...      Richard Erlacher      12/22/10 20:39      
                                    Hi Richard      Jason Arkwright      12/23/10 14:44      
                                       the problem with AVR's is that they're ATMEL only      Richard Erlacher      12/25/10 08:59      
                                          That's one general and one personal problem      Andy Neil      12/26/10 12:08      
                                             Yes, that's what it is ...      Richard Erlacher      12/26/10 19:29      
                                                Second source not so important anymore      Per Westermark      12/27/10 07:40      
                                                   It's not as convenient now as it once was      Richard Erlacher      12/27/10 08:01      
                                                      Free tools only have investment in knowledge      Per Westermark      12/27/10 08:29      
                                                         again. Per      Erik Malund      12/27/10 09:04      
                                                            Not at all      Per Westermark      12/27/10 09:46      
                                                         it's not just the tools      Richard Erlacher      12/27/10 14:44      
                                                            "Best code"        Per Westermark      12/28/10 05:56      
                                                               There are too many definitions of "best"      Richard Erlacher      12/28/10 15:47      
                                                               Don't go for best      Steve M. Taylor      01/03/11 08:50      
                                                   yes and no      Erik Malund      12/27/10 08:29      
                                                   Single-source chips vs single-source architecture      Andy Neil      12/27/10 10:23      
                                 cross purposes      Andy Peters      12/23/10 11:12      
                                    DSP PROCS      Jason Arkwright      12/23/10 14:25      
                                       gp ahead, stay behind the curve      Erik Malund      12/23/10 14:37      
                                          Got to disagree there,...      Jason Arkwright      01/02/11 15:55      
                                             I do not consider 'luck' a design parameter      Erik Malund      01/03/11 05:24      
                                             Flying leads      Valentin Angelovski      01/03/11 05:33      
                                       re: DSP PROCS        Andy Peters      12/27/10 10:48      
                           100MHz 32-bit ARM      Per Westermark      12/22/10 12:49      
                              The Trap...      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 17:11      
                                 talking out of both sides of the mouth      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:27      
                                 "on the DSP level"        Andy Neil      12/23/10 01:07      
                                    Often hand-optimized assembler available      Per Westermark      12/23/10 07:59      
                                    Misunderstood me      Jason Arkwright      12/23/10 16:14      
                                       Cross talk      Per Westermark      12/23/10 16:37      
                                       What kind      JecksonS Ben      12/23/10 18:19      
                                       nobody has suggested      Erik Malund      12/24/10 10:11      
                           no, you are not      Erik Malund      12/22/10 14:59      
                           there are '51s with MACs      Erik Malund      12/22/10 15:05      
                              and...      Andy Neil      12/22/10 16:21      
                                 yes and      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:28      
                                 He wants Plastic Dips      Neil Kurzman      12/22/10 18:28      
                                    very few and      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:33      
                                    the 33 mips DS89C450 is in DIP if you want      Richard Erlacher      12/22/10 20:42      
            no such thing as "Best"      Andy Neil      12/18/10 11:38      
               '51 weaknesses outweigh the AVR      Jason Arkwright      12/18/10 16:02      
                  similiar      JecksonS Ben      12/18/10 21:07      
                  Quite so      Andy Neil      12/19/10 08:59      
                     3, 4, 5        Michael Karas      12/20/10 08:25      
                        Horses for courses      Andy Neil      02/14/11 01:22      
                  Have you considered using a DSP?      Richard Erlacher      05/11/11 16:55      
   I'll be off too, but not to AVR      Oliver Sedlacek      02/14/11 03:31      
      A Guess      Michael Karas      05/04/11 18:54      
         Low volume      Oliver Sedlacek      05/05/11 06:25      

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