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Richard Erlacher
12/27/10 14:44
Read: 1257 times
Denver, Co
USA


 
#180307 - it's not just the tools
Responding to: Per Westermark's previous message
Per Westermark said:
AVR assembly code will need to be rewritten if moving to another architecture.

But a large percentage of embedded products can have a large percentage of the code written in C. And gcc is free and available for many architectures.

So there is normally not any expensive development tools that gets worthless if moving to another architecture. Few AVR users have manated to invest more than maybe $500 in Atmel tools.

It's the investment in knowledge and code that is the real investment. And people will good knowledge about multiple architectures will try to write their code to minimize the cost of moving it between architectures, just for the simple reason that the company is constantly looking at different processors to see if it is meaningful to redesign to cut manufacturing costs.


Well, first of all, the "best" code for one architecture or even one chip within that architecture, is not code that's written to be easily portable between architectures. While it may be good to write code that's portable when you're trying to decide on an architecture, or perhaps a particular chip from a list, the truly best code for a specific task, IMHO, is the code that's been written for that task, often with parts in ASM, and sometimes entirely in ASM, because it fully utilizes the features of that particular architecture or chip. No generic HLL compiler is going to do that for you. You have to determine for yourself which parts have to be "hand-tweaked" and which do not, and those always will vary between architectures. Not only that, when you're moving from one chip within that architecture to another, each one will have strengths and weaknesses that have to be handled carefully and precisely.

If one wants code that's easily portable, one has to give away some of the advantages that one chip or one architecture has over another in order to make each feature set fit the generic compiler.

The REAL problem with single-sourced components lies in the behavior of your supply chain. If you're using 10E6 parts per year, you probably won't have to worry about getting your weekly allocation. If, however, you use 100 components per year, it's very likely your deliveries will be haphazard because the behemoth corporation down the street absorbs them as part of your order from time to time, and the distributor doesn't really care whether or not YOU go out of business because he missed scheduled delivery.

RE






List of 103 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Migrating to AVR      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 10:02      
   8051-replacement      Andy Neil      12/06/10 11:37      
      Yep, I agree      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 13:47      
         Toolchain      Andy Neil      12/06/10 14:41      
            free compilers      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 15:32      
               GCC      Andy Neil      12/07/10 00:24      
               Free ARM compilers      Oliver Sedlacek      12/07/10 07:14      
                  "Free" vs "Free"      Andy Neil      12/07/10 07:54      
   faster '51 derivatives in DIL/PLCC & availability      Jan Waclawek      12/06/10 13:26      
      Tired of hanging around with 5 mips      Jason Arkwright      12/06/10 14:04      
         Re: Tired of hanging around with 5 Mips      Valentin Angelovski      12/06/10 17:59      
            experiences prototyping with smd's      Andy Neil      12/07/10 00:09      
               Prototype SMD      Oliver Sedlacek      12/07/10 09:24      
            Nice, but where to buy and how much?      Jason Arkwright      12/07/10 04:57      
               Re: where to buy and how much?      Valentin Angelovski      12/07/10 07:48      
                  Yeah, but....      Jason Arkwright      12/07/10 08:36      
                     I agree      Valentin Angelovski      12/07/10 17:11      
                        re the XA      Erik Malund      12/08/10 06:39      
                     How many 51' compilers make use of the 51's dual DPTR      Andy Neil      12/07/10 17:54      
               You must live on a very interesting corner!      Andy Neil      12/07/10 07:55      
                  Ha,ha, AVR are ubiquitus      Jason Arkwright      12/07/10 08:22      
                     HUH??      Erik Malund      12/07/10 08:36      
                        Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics      Andy Neil      12/07/10 09:08      
                           I think      Erik Malund      12/07/10 12:01      
                        'F120      Andy Peters      12/07/10 10:36      
                           "bunchload"      Andy Neil      12/07/10 11:35      
                              re: bunchload      Andy Peters      12/08/10 09:28      
                                 Youse guys in Old Blightly        Andy Neil      12/08/10 10:04      
         Prototyping SMD's      John D. Maniraj      12/07/10 00:58      
            Hand-made PCBs with hand-soldered SMDs      Andy Neil      05/04/11 08:30      
            SMD's      Jerry Hudson      05/08/11 09:24      
               Well, that's nice, but not necessary.      Richard Erlacher      05/09/11 09:42      
            a very general - and accurate - comment ...      Erik Malund      05/11/11 07:14      
               apprehension      Andy Neil      05/11/11 07:33      
   nearby      JecksonS Ben      12/07/10 22:12      
      'jumping' from the '51      Erik Malund      12/08/10 06:52      
         AVR update      Jason Arkwright      12/18/10 07:43      
            the chip does not crash      Andy Neil      12/18/10 11:34      
               Lockup etc      Per Westermark      12/18/10 13:41      
                  increase the clock until lockup      Jason Arkwright      12/18/10 15:50      
                     undefined behaviour      Andy Neil      12/18/10 16:24      
                     NO, they do not recommend it      Erik Malund      12/18/10 16:27      
                        simultaneous posts      Erik Malund      12/18/10 16:28      
                           Overclocking        Per Westermark      12/19/10 04:30      
                     This is simply an error in judgment        Richard Erlacher      12/19/10 09:38      
                        all bets are off      Andy Neil      12/20/10 01:19      
                     overclocking        Andy Peters      12/22/10 09:27      
                        Yeah, okay      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 10:31      
                           Neeed for speeed      Andy Neil      12/22/10 10:56      
                              Because of this...      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 16:55      
                                 Missing the point      Andy Neil      12/22/10 17:16      
                                    missing the point?      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 17:46      
                                       Modern derivatives      Andy Neil      12/23/10 01:02      
                                 hogwash      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:22      
                                 I'm not sure you're on track here ...      Richard Erlacher      12/22/10 20:39      
                                    Hi Richard      Jason Arkwright      12/23/10 14:44      
                                       the problem with AVR's is that they're ATMEL only      Richard Erlacher      12/25/10 08:59      
                                          That's one general and one personal problem      Andy Neil      12/26/10 12:08      
                                             Yes, that's what it is ...      Richard Erlacher      12/26/10 19:29      
                                                Second source not so important anymore      Per Westermark      12/27/10 07:40      
                                                   It's not as convenient now as it once was      Richard Erlacher      12/27/10 08:01      
                                                      Free tools only have investment in knowledge      Per Westermark      12/27/10 08:29      
                                                         again. Per      Erik Malund      12/27/10 09:04      
                                                            Not at all      Per Westermark      12/27/10 09:46      
                                                         it's not just the tools      Richard Erlacher      12/27/10 14:44      
                                                            "Best code"        Per Westermark      12/28/10 05:56      
                                                               There are too many definitions of "best"      Richard Erlacher      12/28/10 15:47      
                                                               Don't go for best      Steve M. Taylor      01/03/11 08:50      
                                                   yes and no      Erik Malund      12/27/10 08:29      
                                                   Single-source chips vs single-source architecture      Andy Neil      12/27/10 10:23      
                                 cross purposes      Andy Peters      12/23/10 11:12      
                                    DSP PROCS      Jason Arkwright      12/23/10 14:25      
                                       gp ahead, stay behind the curve      Erik Malund      12/23/10 14:37      
                                          Got to disagree there,...      Jason Arkwright      01/02/11 15:55      
                                             I do not consider 'luck' a design parameter      Erik Malund      01/03/11 05:24      
                                             Flying leads      Valentin Angelovski      01/03/11 05:33      
                                       re: DSP PROCS        Andy Peters      12/27/10 10:48      
                           100MHz 32-bit ARM      Per Westermark      12/22/10 12:49      
                              The Trap...      Jason Arkwright      12/22/10 17:11      
                                 talking out of both sides of the mouth      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:27      
                                 "on the DSP level"        Andy Neil      12/23/10 01:07      
                                    Often hand-optimized assembler available      Per Westermark      12/23/10 07:59      
                                    Misunderstood me      Jason Arkwright      12/23/10 16:14      
                                       Cross talk      Per Westermark      12/23/10 16:37      
                                       What kind      JecksonS Ben      12/23/10 18:19      
                                       nobody has suggested      Erik Malund      12/24/10 10:11      
                           no, you are not      Erik Malund      12/22/10 14:59      
                           there are '51s with MACs      Erik Malund      12/22/10 15:05      
                              and...      Andy Neil      12/22/10 16:21      
                                 yes and      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:28      
                                 He wants Plastic Dips      Neil Kurzman      12/22/10 18:28      
                                    very few and      Erik Malund      12/22/10 18:33      
                                    the 33 mips DS89C450 is in DIP if you want      Richard Erlacher      12/22/10 20:42      
            no such thing as "Best"      Andy Neil      12/18/10 11:38      
               '51 weaknesses outweigh the AVR      Jason Arkwright      12/18/10 16:02      
                  similiar      JecksonS Ben      12/18/10 21:07      
                  Quite so      Andy Neil      12/19/10 08:59      
                     3, 4, 5        Michael Karas      12/20/10 08:25      
                        Horses for courses      Andy Neil      02/14/11 01:22      
                  Have you considered using a DSP?      Richard Erlacher      05/11/11 16:55      
   I'll be off too, but not to AVR      Oliver Sedlacek      02/14/11 03:31      
      A Guess      Michael Karas      05/04/11 18:54      
         Low volume      Oliver Sedlacek      05/05/11 06:25      

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