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Per Westermark
10/27/11 03:32
Read: 479 times

#184387 - Wrong view on evaluation tools
Responding to: Richard Erlacher's previous message
Richard Erlacher said:
What about the guy who simply wants to evaluate the product? He probably does want to see the GUI, and some of the "features." Mainly, though, I'd guess, he wants to see how efficient a code body is produced by the compiler, i.e. how much slower and/or larger the output is. How efficiently it produces the same construct as a competing product.

It is trivial to evaluate the code quality within 4kB.

When I evaluate code quality, I do not need to build a full system.

20 years ago, it was important to know the slowdown of the development tools based on the size of the project. It was common to get a one-hour spin cycle for changing a couple of lines, recompile, link and download. Today, that really isn't a problem. I do not need to know if I can get 10 seconds or 30 seconds spin cycle - people who do care about that spin time are doing it wrong. They are changing a sign in an expression and testing. Then changing something else and testing.

Even if I sell 100k units, the amount of time to evaluate the tools still matter a lot. Why? Because if I expect to sell 100k units/year, I expect to sell 2k units every week. So one week slower evaluation means one week later product release and a loss of sales of 2k units - that is 2%. It isn't likely that two top-of-the-line compilers have so big difference that selecting B instead of A would matter enough to regain a one-week delay in shipping.

Bit-banging because code is fast enough? I don't think you have really looked at the code produced from high-end compilers.

If using ARM-class processors, basically "all" compilers are fast enough, if just the processor is fast enough. If there is a problem, then the critical code sequence is so small that it is trivial to write in assembler.

But even more importantly - the critical part of code is likely to contain lots if GPIO accesses, where there is a one-to-one between source lines and hardware accesses. Exactly how can a compiler fail when there isn't anything to optimize?

In the end, you are seeing problems that doesn't normally exist.

Erik has said he'd "borrow" a full version when he had a likely sale, but it's clear that these vendors don't really want someone to make a rigorous comparison and buy on the basis of what best suits a particular application.

Sorry, but totally bull.

1) The majority of people downloading evaluation software do not want to evaluate. They want free tools.

2) The majority of situations where you do want to evaluate, you do not need more than the evaluation version can do. Or you are doing the evaluation wrong.

3) A real company can manage a lot when contacting the suppliers directly.

List of 53 messages in thread
Linking C programs with Keil evaluation      David Prentice      09/06/11 11:02      
   Eval Tools.      Michael Karas      09/06/11 11:15      
      That makes sense      David Prentice      09/06/11 12:11      
         It's not that much more useable      Richard Erlacher      10/25/11 18:44      
            Work-around for evaluation version limitations?      Per Westermark      10/25/11 23:50      
            Marked -1      Michael Karas      10/26/11 06:26      
               I'm not so sure you're right here ...      Richard Erlacher      10/26/11 07:55      
                  Irrelevant if people have ideas - should they be debated?      Per Westermark      10/26/11 08:19      
                     There's a reason I haven't done it ...      Richard Erlacher      10/26/11 10:36      
                        Would not represent a valid evaluation      Per Westermark      10/27/11 02:00      
                           Wait a minute ... You've got this wrong ...      Richard Erlacher      10/27/11 09:57      
                     One question      Richard Erlacher      10/26/11 12:43      
                        What about the guy who simply wants to evaluate the product?      Andy Neil      10/26/11 14:05      
                           sometimes coding situations and requirements differ      Richard Erlacher      10/26/11 18:57      
                        How would you like it?      Andy Neil      10/26/11 14:13      
                           That's not what I'm asking them to do      Richard Erlacher      10/26/11 19:17      
                              A message from the OP.      David Prentice      10/27/11 03:55      
                                 I don't supply the compiler ...      Richard Erlacher      10/27/11 10:08      
                        Wrong view on evaluation tools      Per Westermark      10/27/11 03:32      
                           as I've said before, where you sit determines what you see      Richard Erlacher      10/27/11 10:47      
                              Still failing to recognize reason for hole in code map      Per Westermark      10/27/11 12:33      
                                 You missed my point again      Richard Erlacher      10/27/11 15:35      
                                    Simulate or use Logic Analyser      David Prentice      10/28/11 05:41      
                                       ramblings      Erik Malund      10/28/11 07:51      
                                       Using evaluation software and hardware      Richard Erlacher      10/28/11 09:44      
                                          The above would be true if....      Erik Malund      10/28/11 10:24      
                                             You don't seriously believe that, do you?      Richard Erlacher      10/28/11 18:54      
                                                A thief is a thief        Per Westermark      10/29/11 07:01      
                                                   Indeed...        Michael Karas      10/29/11 09:47      
                                                   FIrst of all, I don't advocate theivery      Richard Erlacher      10/29/11 14:46      
                                                      and more mumbo jumbo in the reply      Erik Malund      10/29/11 15:47      
                                                      Can _you_ not read debugger output?      Per Westermark      10/29/11 17:39      
                                          8255      Andy Peters      10/28/11 13:26      
                                             Yes, but they're still shipped on some 805x trainer boards      Richard Erlacher      10/28/11 18:42      
                                             Just sayin'      Michael Karas      10/29/11 05:50      
                  Square Wheels for the Car      Michael Karas      10/26/11 10:06      
                     I disagree ... not that that should surprise anyone      Richard Erlacher      10/26/11 10:54      
                        eval and evaluation      Erik Malund      10/26/11 11:25      
                           Yes, if only they were useful ...      Richard Erlacher      10/26/11 12:31      
      Also "LPC900 Studio"      Andy Neil      09/06/11 12:32      
         They all seem crippled      David Prentice      09/06/11 14:22      
            comments      Erik Malund      09/06/11 16:17      
            They all seem crippled      Andy Neil      09/06/11 16:22      
               Yes ... SDCC ... the obvious solution      Richard Erlacher      09/08/11 08:30      
                  what's obvious about it      Erik Malund      09/08/11 09:00      
                     Why not?      Andy Neil      09/08/11 10:48      
                        reasons      Erik Malund      09/08/11 10:59      
                           Unfortunately      Andy Neil      09/08/11 14:13      
                              re Keil      Erik Malund      09/09/11 07:13      
                                 15 years ago?      Maarten Brock      09/09/11 09:28      
                                    OK, maybe not      Erik Malund      09/09/11 09:48      
            reasonable price      Erik Malund      09/07/11 03:41      
            raisonance is 4k with no code offset      Marshall Brown      10/25/11 13:59      

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