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Richard Erlacher
02/14/12 08:00
Read: 679 times
Denver, Co
USA


 
#185936 - Where you sit determines what you see.
Responding to: Erik Malund's previous message
Erik Malund said:
On the contrary, using a "classic" debug monitor - and getting to understand its requirements & limitations - would be a significant learning curve!
I'm not sure I can give you that last one, Andy. Now, I've used monitors for several decades, and have got to admit, I am comfortable with 'em


You are arguing against a "learning curve" and, in doing so, recommend another "learning curve". That YOU are "comfortable with 'em" does not mean it is the right choice for a beginner.

You're right, of course, but I maintain that it's just one learning curve versus two or more, and, in the case in which the learner is trying to learn the intimate details of the processor core, the one, which is easily handled with the monitor, is plenty. Now, if the goal is to approach all of the learner's programming problems from a high-level language, which has to go through a compiler that arranges low-level instructions in a way totally transparent to the user, well, it won't be as helpful.

I would say that, if different, the learning curve for a monitor will be steeper than the learning curve for a "live" debugger, be it ICE, JTAG or whatever.

I'd have to disagree. There aren't many monitor commands to learn, and finding one's way around the innards of the chip via JTAG is not so simple either. I will admit that one would, in any case, have to learn one's way around the innards of the chip, no matter how one gains access. The monitor, however, works with chips that provide no hardware debugging features, and, being "free", costs WAY less than an ICE.

Now, Andy made it clear that this O/P said he was pretty familiar with the KEIL environment. How that mates up with his initial claim at being new to this area of endeavor puzzles me a bit.

a "live debugger" does not affect the locations etc of your code and thus saves you the "learning curve" of how to make your thing work with a "monitor".

Agreed, but it's little help with a chip that doesn't have debug support in hardware.

So if you want to roam with the dinosaurs, go ahead, but please do not insist it is "easier to learn"

Erik

That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I find using a monitor very straightforward, probably because of my many years' experience with 'em. The result is that I know what to expect of 'em, and what to do in order to make 'em do what I want. You, on the other hand, have relied on hardware debugging capabilities for as long as I've followed your writings in this forum. Clearly, you know what it can do for you and how to exploit that. Naturally, you see things from the viewpoint of one who's been doing things this way for years.

As I often say, "Where you sit determines what you see."

I would point out, though, that neither approach provides much help with respect to the O/p's original problem, which was selecting and learning about a "small, modern" 805x chip available in through-hole packaging. The little ones lack enough code space to support development with the aid of a monitor, nor do they generally provide debug support of any sort. The newer SiLabs parts, however, do provide it. That might make the choice easier.

RE



List of 61 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Which modern small 8051 should I use?      Scott Navarre      02/11/12 15:08      
   addition      Scott Navarre      02/11/12 16:02      
      contradicting yourself.      Erik Malund      02/11/12 16:45      
      Get on with SiLabs        Michael Karas      02/11/12 20:55      
         Thanks for all of your input!      Scott Navarre      02/12/12 17:24      
            power miser      Erik Malund      02/12/12 19:15      
               Re: Power Miser      Scott Navarre      02/16/12 02:48      
            Still Need the SiLabs Adapter      Michael Karas      02/12/12 19:15      
      Why?        Richard Erlacher      02/11/12 23:38      
   RE: 8-bit 8051      Andy Neil      02/12/12 02:01      
      SiLabs is sometimes a bit slow ...      Richard Erlacher      02/12/12 10:25      
         RE: "slow"?      Andy Neil      02/12/12 10:45      
            Well ... It might have been coincidental ...      Richard Erlacher      02/12/12 17:57      
   AT89S2051/4051 or ATLP2052/4052      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 02:17      
      and lose all the goodies      Erik Malund      02/13/12 06:54      
         Onewire debug?      Per Westermark      02/13/12 07:22      
            tradeoffs      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 07:43      
               Is a hobbyist not extremely likely to gain      Erik Malund      02/13/12 07:51      
                  JTAG      Per Westermark      02/13/12 08:04      
                     cost to debug      Andy Peters      02/13/12 09:44      
                        cost of AVR debugging "dongle"      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 11:14      
                  You have to ask yourself ...      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 08:07      
                     Beginners have even more reason for debug cells, i.e. ICE        Per Westermark      02/13/12 09:34      
                     WHAT, exactly, is a hobbyist likely to gain from built-in de      Andy Neil      02/13/12 10:48      
                        I still think it 6 one way and half-a-dozen the other      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 21:37      
                           why go old fashioned      Erik Malund      02/14/12 07:29      
                              Where you sit determines what you see.      Richard Erlacher      02/14/12 08:00      
                     exactly this        Erik Malund      02/13/12 11:10      
                        Those are all things the monitor allows      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 21:38      
                           please explain how the monitor allows ...      Erik Malund      02/14/12 07:37      
                              Monitors really not good choice for new designs/developers      Per Westermark      02/14/12 07:51      
                                 Describing Richards preferences      Erik Malund      02/14/12 08:16      
                              It doesn't help with 'C' code at all      Richard Erlacher      02/14/12 08:10      
                                 maybe not using that word      Erik Malund      02/14/12 08:19      
                     "Small" 8051      Scott Navarre      02/14/12 08:38      
                        RE: "Small" 8051      Andy Neil      02/14/12 09:15      
                        Productivity/quality really important for hobbyists too        Per Westermark      02/14/12 09:28      
                        the calculation      Erik Malund      02/14/12 09:39      
                           True cost comes in maintainance      Per Westermark      02/14/12 09:56      
                              I totally agree, however      Erik Malund      02/14/12 10:06      
                           Ratio?      Andy Neil      02/14/12 11:02      
                              all numbers are arbitrary      Erik Malund      02/14/12 11:26      
                                 but it's good to be ...      Andy Neil      02/14/12 12:43      
                                    Not needed      Per Westermark      02/14/12 13:29      
                              A couple of things ...      Richard Erlacher      02/14/12 21:21      
                                 RE: A couple of things ...      Andy Neil      02/15/12 00:52      
                                 neither does a SILabs toolstick      Erik Malund      02/15/12 09:34      
                                    Starting out, the old-reliable antiques are very easy      Richard Erlacher      02/15/12 21:46      
                                       Wrong conceptual level for majority of needs      Per Westermark      02/16/12 02:54      
                                       only somewhat true      Erik Malund      02/16/12 07:21      
                        First, Define Icc and Code Size Targets      Jim Granville      02/15/12 03:00      
                           It's more complicated than that      Andy Neil      02/15/12 04:55      
                           that is not enough      Erik Malund      02/15/12 09:42      
                              that is not enough      Jim Granville      02/15/12 13:30      
                                 which was what I posted      Erik Malund      02/15/12 13:49      
                                    ROFL      Jim Granville      02/15/12 14:52      
                                    Not a simple formula!      Andy Neil      02/15/12 16:03      
                  power      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 08:12      
                     OCD != Emulation        Andy Neil      02/13/12 10:31      
               the particular hobbyist in question      Andy Neil      02/13/12 10:42      
                  It does allow him to maintain separation from the hardware      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 21:41      

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