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Per Westermark
02/14/12 09:28
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Sweden


 
Msg Score: +1
 +1 Good Answer/Helpful
#185945 - Productivity/quality really important for hobbyists too
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Most of 8051 books don't get old. Except when they recommend tools or what chip to buy.

A very significant amount of embedded work are now done in C.

With todays product life spans, the developers times represents a very high percentage of the total costs. And the cost of processors are not a strict linear function based on amount of RAM or code space. And power consumption is more a function of processor generation than it is based on number of tranistors.

So both for hobbyists and for commercial work, C are a very much valued tool. Especially since large percentages of the business logic can be moved from one processor to another with almost zero work - it's the mapping to UART, timers etc that needs to be adjusted when moving to other manufacturer or totally different architecture.

When the last byte isn't important, most people will quickly find that only few percent of all embedded programs (or actually fractions of programs) needs to really count clock cycles. So while majority of embedded C programs don't have any assembler except for the startup file and some optimized functions in the CRTL, a much bigger percentage of applications can squeeze the required performance by having maybe 10-100 C lines converted into assembler.

The main goal is normally productivity. And correctness. Where C have advantages in front of assembler. Or where hw-assisted debugging have big advantages over monitor-based solutions. Why look at an unformatted hex dump from a monitor, when a in-circuit debugging with a debugger integrated with some debug-cells in the chip can instead show fully decoded information. Of course it's a disadvantage when the debugger needs to be matched to the hardware - but the advantage in productivity is high. And haven't Keil been working on XML-based templating for getting their debugger to present information for unknown peripherials?

List of 61 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Which modern small 8051 should I use?      Scott Navarre      02/11/12 15:08      
   addition      Scott Navarre      02/11/12 16:02      
      contradicting yourself.      Erik Malund      02/11/12 16:45      
      Get on with SiLabs        Michael Karas      02/11/12 20:55      
         Thanks for all of your input!      Scott Navarre      02/12/12 17:24      
            power miser      Erik Malund      02/12/12 19:15      
               Re: Power Miser      Scott Navarre      02/16/12 02:48      
            Still Need the SiLabs Adapter      Michael Karas      02/12/12 19:15      
      Why?        Richard Erlacher      02/11/12 23:38      
   RE: 8-bit 8051      Andy Neil      02/12/12 02:01      
      SiLabs is sometimes a bit slow ...      Richard Erlacher      02/12/12 10:25      
         RE: "slow"?      Andy Neil      02/12/12 10:45      
            Well ... It might have been coincidental ...      Richard Erlacher      02/12/12 17:57      
   AT89S2051/4051 or ATLP2052/4052      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 02:17      
      and lose all the goodies      Erik Malund      02/13/12 06:54      
         Onewire debug?      Per Westermark      02/13/12 07:22      
            tradeoffs      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 07:43      
               Is a hobbyist not extremely likely to gain      Erik Malund      02/13/12 07:51      
                  JTAG      Per Westermark      02/13/12 08:04      
                     cost to debug      Andy Peters      02/13/12 09:44      
                        cost of AVR debugging "dongle"      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 11:14      
                  You have to ask yourself ...      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 08:07      
                     Beginners have even more reason for debug cells, i.e. ICE        Per Westermark      02/13/12 09:34      
                     WHAT, exactly, is a hobbyist likely to gain from built-in de      Andy Neil      02/13/12 10:48      
                        I still think it 6 one way and half-a-dozen the other      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 21:37      
                           why go old fashioned      Erik Malund      02/14/12 07:29      
                              Where you sit determines what you see.      Richard Erlacher      02/14/12 08:00      
                     exactly this        Erik Malund      02/13/12 11:10      
                        Those are all things the monitor allows      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 21:38      
                           please explain how the monitor allows ...      Erik Malund      02/14/12 07:37      
                              Monitors really not good choice for new designs/developers      Per Westermark      02/14/12 07:51      
                                 Describing Richards preferences      Erik Malund      02/14/12 08:16      
                              It doesn't help with 'C' code at all      Richard Erlacher      02/14/12 08:10      
                                 maybe not using that word      Erik Malund      02/14/12 08:19      
                     "Small" 8051      Scott Navarre      02/14/12 08:38      
                        RE: "Small" 8051      Andy Neil      02/14/12 09:15      
                        Productivity/quality really important for hobbyists too        Per Westermark      02/14/12 09:28      
                        the calculation      Erik Malund      02/14/12 09:39      
                           True cost comes in maintainance      Per Westermark      02/14/12 09:56      
                              I totally agree, however      Erik Malund      02/14/12 10:06      
                           Ratio?      Andy Neil      02/14/12 11:02      
                              all numbers are arbitrary      Erik Malund      02/14/12 11:26      
                                 but it's good to be ...      Andy Neil      02/14/12 12:43      
                                    Not needed      Per Westermark      02/14/12 13:29      
                              A couple of things ...      Richard Erlacher      02/14/12 21:21      
                                 RE: A couple of things ...      Andy Neil      02/15/12 00:52      
                                 neither does a SILabs toolstick      Erik Malund      02/15/12 09:34      
                                    Starting out, the old-reliable antiques are very easy      Richard Erlacher      02/15/12 21:46      
                                       Wrong conceptual level for majority of needs      Per Westermark      02/16/12 02:54      
                                       only somewhat true      Erik Malund      02/16/12 07:21      
                        First, Define Icc and Code Size Targets      Jim Granville      02/15/12 03:00      
                           It's more complicated than that      Andy Neil      02/15/12 04:55      
                           that is not enough      Erik Malund      02/15/12 09:42      
                              that is not enough      Jim Granville      02/15/12 13:30      
                                 which was what I posted      Erik Malund      02/15/12 13:49      
                                    ROFL      Jim Granville      02/15/12 14:52      
                                    Not a simple formula!      Andy Neil      02/15/12 16:03      
                  power      Jan Waclawek      02/13/12 08:12      
                     OCD != Emulation        Andy Neil      02/13/12 10:31      
               the particular hobbyist in question      Andy Neil      02/13/12 10:42      
                  It does allow him to maintain separation from the hardware      Richard Erlacher      02/13/12 21:41      

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