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Kai Klaas
01/09/06 06:20
Modified:
  01/09/06 06:25

Read: 1337 times
Germany


 
#106886 - Misinterpretation
Responding to: Farshid Jafari Harandi's previous message
Farshid said:
My problem is that the Fast Slew rate OP-AMPs are hard to find. Maximum neeeded BandWidth For this project wouldn't be more than 10 Mhz. The reason Bitscope used such a fast OP-Amp was because of the Sub-Sampling technique they used.(This way they can capture up to 1Ghz signals with a 25 MSPS ADC !)

Bitscope says, that maximum analog sampling rate is 40Ms/sec. From Shannon-Nyquist theorem this means that a maximum signal frequency of 20MHz can be handled. So, the analog part of the circuit must at least have a bandwidth of 20MHz, which is also stated in their specifications (single-shot bandwidth).
A big misinterpretation of sub-sampling technique is, that by sub-sampling a higher bandwidth can be achieved. This is wrong! The only thing that sub-sampling provides is more samples per period. Assume that 20MHz is sampled by 40Ms/sec. Then you get two samples per period with a distance of 25nsec. Sub-sampling technique only adds additionally samples, so that the gap between the two samples is filled by a number of additional samples. The distance between two samples is not 25nsec as with 40Ms/sec sampling rate then, but 1nsec according to a sampling rate of 1Gs/sec.
Again, this does not at all mean, that the bandwidth is increased in any way!

Why must OPamps be used, which show a much higher bandwidth than 20Mhz for this purpose?
A bandwidth of 20MHz means a dampening of 3dB at 20MHz. If you would use OPamps with 20MHz bandwidth, then using four such OPams in series would result in a dampening of 4 x 3dB = 12dB. So, bandwidth of circuit would be much much lower than 20MHz. Because of this, much faster OPamps must be used, to allow that when four of them are put in series the over all bandwidth is 20MHz.
Another reason, why much faster OPamps must be used is, that specified bandwidth of OPamp, means "unity gain bandwidth" is only valid for a gain of 1. When a gain greater than 1 is needed then bandwidth becomes drastically lowered.

Up to now we have considered the issue in the frequency domain. If you analyze situation in time domain we must have a look at slew rates.
A bandwidth of 20MHz corresponds to a signal rise time of 1 / pi / 20MHz = 15.9nsec. Relating to a 5V step this means a slew rate of 314V/Ásec.
If we had OPamps showing a slew rate of 314V/Áec, then putting four of them in series would result in an over all slew rate of SQRT((314V/Ásec)^2 / 4) = 157V/Ásec. So, again we see that OPams are to be used, which show a slew rate of much more than 314V/Ásec.
Again, as above, slew rate drastically lowers if a gain is needed which is higher than 1.

So, you see, even when only wanting a bandwidth of 20MHz, using OPamps of 300MHz bandwidth and a slew rate of 1100V/Ásec is no waste of performance.

We have overlooked one part of signal chain up to now: The probe. If a bandwidth of 20MHz is wanted, then a probe providing a bandwidth of 100MHz should be used.

Kai

List of 87 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
20Mhz Analog Input of a DSO      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/05/06 15:26      
   Link      Kai Klaas      01/06/06 05:43      
      why go for 20MHz      Erik Malund      01/06/06 07:07      
         No 4 layer PCB & faster ADC available      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/07/06 03:56      
      Initial look ...      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/07/06 03:51      
         Trigger Circuit      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/07/06 07:55      
            Try of explaination      Kai Klaas      01/07/06 14:21      
               Badly drawn      Steve M. Taylor      01/07/06 14:47      
               Trigger and Amp      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/07/06 17:18      
                  Take care...      Kai Klaas      01/07/06 18:26      
                     Speed      Steve M. Taylor      01/08/06 05:32      
                        Like This ?      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/08/06 07:52      
                           Just wait...      Steve M. Taylor      01/08/06 09:12      
                              so what do they do there ?      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/08/06 10:29      
                                 Direct Digital synthesis      Steve M. Taylor      01/08/06 10:51      
                                    I just can think about one benefit      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/08/06 13:09      
                     Searching...      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/08/06 07:44      
                        Misinterpretation      Kai Klaas      01/09/06 06:20      
                           Proper Op-Amp      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/09/06 16:49      
                              AD844 has 50 Ohm input resistance on -      Frieder Ferlemann      01/10/06 02:04      
                                 inverting input resistance      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/10/06 09:05      
                              specifications      Kai Klaas      01/10/06 07:24      
                                 sampling      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/10/06 09:14      
                                    Of course      Kai Klaas      01/10/06 09:27      
                                       Yes but      Steve M. Taylor      01/10/06 14:53      
                                          Exactly!      Kai Klaas      01/11/06 06:15      
                                 Preamp Initial Schematic      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/10/06 21:18      
                                    please resubmit the schematic in a forma      Erik Malund      01/11/06 06:24      
                                       Real size button      Kai Klaas      01/11/06 06:39      
                                          not quite good enough      Erik Malund      01/11/06 06:53      
                                             Higher Resolution      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/11/06 07:17      
                                       Resize      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/11/06 06:56      
                                          I do not care if it fits, I can move it      Erik Malund      01/11/06 07:21      
                                             readable with gthumb      Frieder Ferlemann      01/11/06 08:17      
                                             They are1N4148s      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/11/06 08:18      
                                             Problem is at your end      Ian Bell      01/11/06 12:04      
                                                do you refer to the first submit      Erik Malund      01/11/06 12:09      
                                                   Web Browser      Steve M. Taylor      01/11/06 13:28      
                                                   Both      Ian Bell      01/11/06 14:17      
                                    Some changes needed      Kai Klaas      01/11/06 19:05      
                                       have to sleep a little ,will post later      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/11/06 22:19      
                                       I would try this      Kai Klaas      01/12/06 07:20      
                                          not an analog eagle      Erik Malund      01/12/06 07:34      
                                             Why not      Kai Klaas      01/12/06 07:58      
                                                not objecting, just wondering      Erik Malund      01/12/06 08:31      
                                          Updated Schematic      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/12/06 13:21      
                                             FETs      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/12/06 13:39      
                                                I remember going to the races on Thursda      Erik Malund      01/12/06 13:45      
                                                   Yes, Nowadays they're held at friday      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/12/06 14:13      
                                             Answers      Kai Klaas      01/12/06 19:01      
                                                JFET Input good      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/12/06 21:30      
                                                   Deviations      Kai Klaas      01/13/06 07:06      
                                             Answers II        Kai Klaas      01/13/06 06:53      
                                                Corrected mistakes      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/13/06 10:31      
                                                   Answers III      Kai Klaas      01/13/06 17:44      
                                                      RE : Answers III      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/13/06 19:05      
                                                      new questions about PCB/Supply      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/13/06 20:48      
                                                         Answers IV        Kai Klaas      01/14/06 07:22      
                                                            RE : Answers IV      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/14/06 12:29      
                                          How do adjust the cap trimmers?      Kai Klaas      01/15/06 18:06      
                                             Thanks for everything      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/16/06 02:29      
                     Found these      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/08/06 13:06      
            inductance      Kai Klaas      01/10/06 09:39      
               Relays      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/10/06 21:24      
                  Reed-relay        Kai Klaas      01/11/06 07:57      
                     Reed Relays      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/11/06 08:19      
         Plays no significant role      Kai Klaas      01/07/06 13:59      
            but they are sensitive      Erik Malund      01/09/06 10:36      
               Analog Mux      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/09/06 16:42      
                  today Philips announced this MUX      Erik Malund      01/10/06 07:21      
                  Strac capacitance make the worse      Kai Klaas      01/10/06 09:22      
                     Sorry, stray not strac      Kai Klaas      01/10/06 09:23      
   a better aproach maybe      Jez Smith      01/12/06 08:27      
      PLD question      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/12/06 14:15      
         Re PLD questions      Jez Smith      01/12/06 15:57      
            link      Jez Smith      01/12/06 16:05      
            Go for CPLD or not !      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/12/06 20:28      
               Not in that timescale      Jez Smith      01/13/06 00:22      
                  so about 10K gates are needed ?      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/13/06 12:46      
                     part numbers      Jez Smith      01/14/06 01:10      
                        Wow pretty expensive !      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/14/06 02:18      
                  I'll have to wait till tommorow      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/13/06 13:09      
   is this helpful?      Erik Malund      01/12/06 14:25      
      good link      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/12/06 20:22      
   Heres a start      Jez Smith      01/13/06 00:59      
   'must read'        Rob Klein      01/14/06 07:25      
      What a great reference !      Farshid Jafari Harandi      01/14/06 12:33      

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