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Per Westermark
06/23/10 00:29
Read: 976 times
Sweden


 
#176849 - Yes, auto-increment/decrement is standard and not "feature"
Responding to: Richard Erlacher's previous message
Yes, Richard. Even a $1 ARM does have auto-increment/auto-decrement. Cheap or expensive just affects amount of RAM, flash, max clock speed, pins and peripherial bells and whistles. There will still be an ARM core inside, or it wouldn't be an ARM chip.

With the possible exception of some 8-bit processors, there are hardly any new processors released for a good many years that does not have auto-decrement and auto-increment as standard - normally not on one or two dedicated index registers but as standard on the full set of general-purpose registers. The 32-bit processors have the advantage that they normally don't need dedicated index registers since a general-purpose register is wide enough to address 4GB of memory space. Removing the separation between GP registers and index registers means that you get the full advantage of multiply etc (Ax+B is a required operation for finding the offset of an element in an array) but when performing indexed lookup, many of the processors also have a separate addressing engine to allow the sum of two registers (or a register + offset) to be used - and to allow one of the values to be scaled, representing the stride size of an array.

Auto-increment/decrement are not seen as features, so they are not mentioned in any feature lists. The availability of them are similar to the availability of an ALU.

Last time we discussed this, I did mention this. But the chip I used for comparison at that time ended up (I think) at 72ns while your 8051 managed 60ns. So you decided to ignore ARM processors. But there are many, many ARM processors available and they span a large performance range just as 8051 chips does. And there are many other architectures that also may be applicable for a design. The biggest advantage with ARM chips isn't that they are the worlds best processor cores, but that the same set of tools can be used with so varying chips. ARM sells the core, which means that the manufacturers will have to spend time making their chips unique and well-placed by making sure that they add the peripherials that the end-users wants. Almost all of the competition is the availability of good add-ons at a low price. The same thing doesn't normally happen if looking at 32-bit processors of other architectures. Atmel and PIC have proprietary 32-bit architectures, reducing the competition. And there are too few PPC or MIPS manufacturers.

A normal 100-pin chip with 0.8mm spacing is harder to hand-solder for a single prototype. But not more expensive for real production. It does not require extra high-grade PCB and it is well within the capabilities of the standard component pickers/placers. Nothing strange with soldering them either. The ability to get a 48-pin or 100-pin or 144-pin or ... chip means that each and every design can optimize the amount of external components.

The $1 price I mentioned is not for single unit - when I need a single unit of something, I don't care about the price unless it is consuming a significant percentage of my salary.

I mostly use NXP ARM chips, and I think the $1.5 .. $2 price I mentioned was $2 at 100 units (a chip in the LPC13xx series). The NXP chips are not the cheapest, but they tend to have very good peripherials making the chips nice and easy to use.

List of 104 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
So What Is An 8051/2 Good For?      Andy Neil      06/17/10 16:35      
   thoughts      Erik Malund      06/18/10 04:36      
      The Future of the 805x      Joseph Hebert      06/18/10 08:40      
         PARC      Rob Klein      06/18/10 09:01      
            Bigger Hammers      Joseph Hebert      06/18/10 09:37      
               re: Bigger Hammers      Rob Klein      06/18/10 10:59      
               The opposite problem seems more common here!      Andy Neil      06/18/10 15:50      
         Would Toyota have had the problem if ...      Erik Malund      06/18/10 09:31      
            Toyota: Case in point      Joseph Hebert      06/18/10 09:46      
            RE: Toyota      Andy Neil      06/18/10 10:17      
               It was a mechanical fix ...      Richard Erlacher      06/18/10 22:37      
            Parallel Processing      Justin Fontes      06/18/10 10:35      
               Sometimes the practical reality is of little consequence      Richard Erlacher      06/18/10 22:45      
                  Totally Agree, but I was looking for a magic bullet      Justin Fontes      06/18/10 23:09      
                  RE: "outperform"      Andy Neil      06/19/10 01:10      
                     There are some operations ...      Richard Erlacher      06/19/10 06:19      
                        rephrased      Erik Malund      06/19/10 06:44      
                        Now, you are extrapolating      Per Westermark      06/19/10 06:44      
                           good points, but      Erik Malund      06/19/10 07:12      
                              How many 8051 chips uses 0.13u?      Per Westermark      06/19/10 08:57      
                                 not yet      Erik Malund      06/19/10 13:05      
                           not exactly ...      Richard Erlacher      06/20/10 09:39      
                              Do not get focused on one operation...      Michael Karas      06/20/10 10:20      
                              any 8-bit instruction can exist in a 32-bit processor      Per Westermark      06/20/10 12:14      
                                 Yes, but does it?      Richard Erlacher      06/22/10 07:54      
                                    So have you looked at any other processors?      Per Westermark      06/22/10 09:37      
                                       not a point of disagreement, but you missed it anyway      Richard Erlacher      06/22/10 22:50      
                                          A good point      Justin Fontes      06/22/10 23:10      
                                             beg to differ      Michael Karas      06/22/10 23:23      
                                             Disagree entirely!      Andy Neil      06/23/10 00:45      
                                          Yes, auto-increment/decrement is standard and not "feature"      Per Westermark      06/23/10 00:29      
                                             What I wanted to point out ...      Richard Erlacher      06/23/10 06:07      
                                                Same same all the time. no "one size fits".      Per Westermark      06/23/10 07:46      
                                                   and the most important point is (drumroll) ....      Erik Malund      06/23/10 09:49      
                                                Comparing Apples to Oranges      Andy Neil      06/23/10 08:03      
                                          Prices are comparable      Andy Neil      06/23/10 01:00      
               Parallel processing        Oliver Sedlacek      06/22/10 02:40      
                  Sweeping generalisation!      Andy Neil      06/22/10 03:22      
                     Not a magic silver bullit      Per Westermark      06/22/10 04:20      
                        Fond memories      Oliver Sedlacek      06/22/10 07:58      
                        A magic bullet      Justin Fontes      06/22/10 10:17      
                           Most concepts already exists in the wild      Per Westermark      06/22/10 11:31      
                           Another generalisation        Andy Neil      06/22/10 14:43      
                           Speed vs latency      Oliver Sedlacek      06/22/10 14:47      
                              Why 8051?      Andy Neil      06/22/10 15:08      
                                 Isn't it obvious?      Justin Fontes      06/22/10 23:17      
                                    ARM simpler than 8051      Oliver Sedlacek      06/23/10 00:21      
                                       Generalisation      Andy Neil      06/23/10 01:34      
                                          ARM 'MCUs' have their limitations too!      Valentin Angelovski      06/24/10 07:52      
                                             You normally engineer with a backup plan      Per Westermark      06/24/10 08:20      
                                    No, it's not!      Andy Neil      06/23/10 01:27      
                                       Im just trying to provide an argument      Justin Fontes      06/23/10 10:33      
                                          x bits are just one parameter among many      Per Westermark      06/23/10 11:27      
                                             Avoiding the issue      Justin Fontes      06/23/10 21:09      
                                                Avoiding what issue?      Per Westermark      06/24/10 03:10      
                                          They say it because it's true!      Andy Neil      06/24/10 00:59      
                                          RE: ARM is not the only 32-bitter      Andy Neil      06/24/10 01:15      
                                    Please don'g generalize      Per Westermark      06/23/10 01:28      
                                 Heterogenous multiprocessing widespread      Oliver Sedlacek      06/23/10 00:17      
                  Re: Multicore 8051      Valentin Angelovski      06/24/10 06:48      
                     ALU chaining      Oliver Sedlacek      06/24/10 06:57      
   Well... maybe      Jez Smith      06/18/10 14:47      
      A Linear Accelerator?      Joseph Hebert      06/18/10 15:28      
         Its one of these      Jez Smith      06/18/10 15:51      
      please, repeat      Stefan KAnev      06/19/10 04:56      
         All I was saying was      Jez Smith      06/19/10 10:39      
   So what the '51 are good for...      Jan Waclawek      06/21/10 13:54      
      Not terribly helpful      Andy Neil      06/21/10 14:46      
         Always up to the developers      Per Westermark      06/21/10 15:24      
            RE: The manufacturers tells us...      Andy Neil      06/21/10 15:30      
               Sales - "may be used for" presented as "recommended"      Per Westermark      06/21/10 16:41      
               pretty hot, low-power and small      Maarten Brock      06/22/10 15:17      
                  Automotive...      Andy Neil      06/22/10 15:26      
         but answers your original question (at least the one...      Jan Waclawek      06/22/10 10:19      
         MCS51 still rocking !!!      Kiran V. Sutar      06/23/10 05:14      
            Scale      Andy Neil      06/23/10 06:09      
            Missing the point      Andy Neil      06/23/10 06:21      
               Impossible to generalize into fields      Per Westermark      06/23/10 08:09      
                  An appropriate generalisation...      Andy Neil      06/23/10 10:20      
               You are right..Andy Neil      Kiran V. Sutar      06/24/10 05:27      
                  Cheers!      Andy Neil      06/24/10 05:43      
                     No..only AT89C52 can be used      Kiran V. Sutar      06/24/10 05:56      
                        why do you insist on Atmel?      Erik Malund      06/24/10 06:05      
                        what a strange post      Erik Malund      06/24/10 06:09      
                        Tools?      Andy Neil      06/24/10 07:12      
                           Multiple manufactuers with (almost) identical chips      Per Westermark      06/24/10 07:48      
                              Getting better      Andy Neil      06/24/10 08:52      
                                 Unified interrupt controller is really great      Per Westermark      06/24/10 09:28      
                           Yes, even with free tools for PIC/AVR      Kiran V. Sutar      06/24/10 08:38      
                              I mean no offense, but ...      Richard Erlacher      06/26/10 09:59      
                              Similar difficulties coming to 8051/2?      Andy Neil      06/26/10 10:28      
                                 Same same      Per Westermark      06/26/10 11:18      
                  Is it your purchase price or why so sure AVR or PIC are off?      Per Westermark      06/24/10 05:55      
                     Answer to Per and Erik...      Kiran V. Sutar      06/24/10 06:38      
                  Living in the past      John D. Maniraj      06/24/10 09:44      
                     Thanks John D. Maniraj      Kiran V. Sutar      06/25/10 03:54      
                     locking      Erik Malund      06/25/10 07:20      
                        RE: Locking      Andy Neil      06/25/10 07:32      
                        Agreed, but      John D. Maniraj      06/25/10 11:00      
                           fairly easy      Erik Malund      06/25/10 11:53      
      Don't forget consumer devices      David Good      06/24/10 13:45      
         A perfect application      David Good      06/25/10 10:49      
   8051 vs ARM      Valentin Angelovski      06/24/10 08:34      
   just thought of one case      Erik Malund      06/24/10 12:32      

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