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Per Westermark
12/28/10 12:09
Read: 514 times
Sweden


 
#180320 - Which means we must motivate people
Responding to: Erik Malund's previous message
Erik Malund said:
Besides - it's way more fun to have built everything from scratch, than just dropping some software into a ready-to-use dev-kit.
absolutely, however, unless you are VERY confident in either hardware or software, you will wonder through many sleepless nights "is it because of hardware or software that it does not work"

Somehow, that have never scared me. I see it more like a chess game or maybe crosswords. If something doesn't work, it's an interesting problem to try to reduce the problem into smaller problems until error sources (there may be many) will start to show up.

Erik said:
I would strongly recommend to get your feet wet with a devboard before you have "way more fun to have built everything from scratch"

Yes, I definitely recommend dev-kits. I just note that even $50 can be a very significant amount of money for some peope, and that what we see as basically "for free" is what other people dreams of having.

Erik said:
besides, Per (I do not know your age) I guess in the days you "did not have much money to spend on components" the risetimes were more tolerant towards "protoboards". The risetimes of todays components makes flying leads a losing prpopsition.

My first own designs had external EPROM, external SRAM, external UART, external PIO, ...

Todays components may have extremely fast rise times. But most of the time, that doesn't matter since you can do so much with a microcontroller with all critical parts inside. It's enough that you get the oscillator running - and most newer microcontrollers allows you to select between internal RC oscillator or external crystal. Bouncing from very fast inputs/outputs doesn't matter when you drive a relay or a LED - you can't see the bounces. And handling inputs is no different from handling debouncing of keyboards.

It's when people start to play with sequence-controlled external components (shift registers, counters, latches, ...) that the rise times may hurt. But for most hobbyists, the rise times will just make your device behave like a radio transmitter. And a hobbyist doesn't care too much about any noise emitted from their project. I didn't care about how wide my FM transmitters did transmit. If I could transmit music to my FM radio, I didn't care about if I affected my neighbours receivers.

Having just a single processor also means that most hobbyists can get by with a reasonably good VCC and GND to the processor. Many processors can work between 3 and 6V, giving a bit of safety margin from bouncing ground and missing or badly placed capacitors on VCC.

In many situations, a professional with a good scope may see things that would make him cry. But the device would still work well enough that the hobbyist would be happy.

But back to the issue. The important thing when discussing with hobbyists, is to try to tell them reasons why their life will be simpler with a dev-kit. We need to motivate them, because there may be a very significant economic barrier involved, that we don't think about. We just think "it's just a $25 cable" and think how it saves us time. If you can afford $10/week for your hobby then it's 2.5 weeks of savings needed. That changes the perspective. It's people looking from that perspective that we must try to motivate. Better they save a couple of weeks more, and get something running, than takes the cheaper route and gets a wreck at the back of their desk drawer.

List of 44 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
[ARM] derivative choice      Stefan KAnev      12/09/10 08:18      
   an illusion      Erik Malund      12/09/10 08:44      
      ?      Stefan KAnev      12/09/10 10:25      
         Possibility      Andy Neil      12/09/10 10:34      
            pins and what they are      Erik Malund      12/09/10 11:31      
               the reason to differentiate is...      Jan Waclawek      12/09/10 15:46      
   None?      Andy Neil      12/09/10 09:38      
   There's no PDIP pins      JecksonS Ben      12/09/10 18:21      
   Product upgrade?      Kalpak Dabir      12/09/10 20:16      
      i'm not      Stefan KAnev      12/09/10 22:06      
   Nuvoton NuMicro M051      Valentin Angelovski      12/10/10 17:31      
      Don't see it [Ed]      Andy Neil      12/11/10 03:24      
         You cannot see it? c'mon! ;-)      Valentin Angelovski      12/11/10 04:59      
         pinout and compatibility      Jan Waclawek      12/11/10 05:45      
   arn is not for hobbies      JecksonS Ben      12/12/10 18:11      
      Oh yes it is!      Andy Neil      12/13/10 00:29      
         I didn't type      JecksonS Ben      12/13/10 01:16      
            Yes, you did!      Andy Neil      12/13/10 01:51      
               Good hobby processor      Per Westermark      12/13/10 06:12      
                  cheaper evaluation boards      Andy Neil      12/13/10 06:37      
                     Debugging support really is vital        Per Westermark      12/13/10 07:11      
                        debug      Andy Peters      12/16/10 15:38      
                           Arduino      Valentin Angelovski      12/23/10 17:59      
                              silabs equivalent to arduino      Andy Peters      12/27/10 10:52      
                                 Broad span of resources available      Per Westermark      12/27/10 12:16      
                                    absolutely, however      Erik Malund      12/28/10 06:50      
                                       Which means we must motivate people      Per Westermark      12/28/10 12:09      
                                          toolstick is cheaper      Maarten Brock      12/31/10 03:45      
                                    re: broad span      Andy Peters      12/28/10 10:33      
                                       Imagination      Per Westermark      12/28/10 11:53      
               I meant...      JecksonS Ben      12/16/10 18:01      
                  Not relevant      Andy Neil      12/16/10 18:10      
                     but      JecksonS Ben      12/16/10 23:14      
                        google      Stefan KAnev      12/16/10 23:20      
                           Solder all - then clean up      Per Westermark      12/17/10 01:17      
                              Agree ... it's all in the flux and wick      Richard Erlacher      12/17/10 15:51      
                           hard to solder      JecksonS Ben      12/17/10 23:39      
                              see 2 ways      Stefan KAnev      12/18/10 00:14      
                                 Hard to ...      JecksonS Ben      12/18/10 21:10      
                                    You just aren't listening, are you?      Andy Neil      12/19/10 09:01      
                                       hard or not      Erik Malund      12/19/10 17:02      
                                       re: just not listening      Andy Peters      12/23/10 11:16      
                              Don't solder pad for pad      Per Westermark      12/18/10 01:42      
                        oy      Andy Peters      12/23/10 11:14      

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