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Per Westermark
03/10/12 12:38
Read: 710 times
Sweden


 
#186563 - Head or tail wind? Or riding in a group or alone?
Responding to: Kai Klaas's previous message
Kai Klaas said:
Going uphill the error shall be less than 5%...

Kai Klaas

But what about the error in all other situations. Such as going alone against a strong wind?

There are at least competitors who do have a wind sensor.

The Sigma is just a ploy. Price doesn't matter much if a device isn't even in the race.

If the goal is feedback for training, then a Polar pulse meter with height meter (so evaluating ascent/descent) or a pulse meter with a GPS will manage just as well - even if they don't have menu setting to display "power". What they can do is compute the intensity based on pulse. Or based on speed in relation to height difference. And the second thing is basically the same as the Sigma displays. It's just a question of adding in a constant to translate from a fictive training intensity into a Watt measure.

But any system that does not contain real sensors will fail badly with wind. And wind is the #1 factor for biking. With the exception of mountain climbs, we would move around like rockets if it wasn't for the wind resistance. At 30 km/h, you have about 80W wind resistance. At 40 km/h, it's about 180W. At 50 km/h it's about 350W. Actual figures obviously depending on true size of rider, how aerodynamic the gear is, seating position, ... And ignoring all other losses. Friction tyre/ground, or in bearings or chain. Or the amount of energy needed to go uphill.

But the interesting thing is of course how quickly the wind resistance increases with speed, which makes a simulation like the Sigma fail badly if there is a 10 km/h headwind or tailwind. At 40km/h it would overestimate the power with 100W or underestimate it with 170W. If just having 2m/s wind, the error would be about -80 to +120 W at 40km/h.

What makes this even more important? How would the Sigma know if you are riding alone or in the front of the pack. Or if you have a comfortable ride behind someone? The difference is huge.

So I repeat it again - the Sigma is just a ploy.

If basing the training on the pulse measurements, you would at least get a direct feedback from the wind or where you are in the group. The goal with power meter must be to get a better feedback on amount of work done. Not worse.

List of 61 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
bikey design challenge      Jez Smith      03/09/12 12:14      
   Only 400W?      Per Westermark      03/09/12 12:23      
      Its a bit different on the road      Jez Smith      03/09/12 12:34      
         Brilliant idea in the bath      Jez Smith      03/09/12 13:35      
            Might work      Per Westermark      03/09/12 13:51      
               well...      Jez Smith      03/09/12 14:33      
                  So you are yourself saying 400W is a bit low max scale      Per Westermark      03/09/12 14:43      
                     O.K then 500 watts      Jez Smith      03/10/12 00:56      
                        Battery      Per Westermark      03/10/12 05:11      
            Fun with strain gauges      Oliver Sedlacek      03/12/12 05:57      
         You sure?      Per Westermark      03/09/12 13:48      
   nice ride      Andy Peters      03/09/12 14:31      
      fanks      Jez Smith      03/10/12 00:54      
   Sigma Rox 9.1...      Kai Klaas      03/10/12 09:59      
      Sigma fake      Per Westermark      03/10/12 11:07      
         What do you expect for that price?      Kai Klaas      03/10/12 12:09      
            Head or tail wind? Or riding in a group or alone?      Per Westermark      03/10/12 12:38      
               Way overcomplicating this      Joseph Hebert      03/10/12 14:02      
                  Sensors      Steve M. Taylor      03/10/12 14:22      
                     how indeed      Andy Peters      03/11/12 12:37      
                  Wrong - you are totally missing the drag factor      Per Westermark      03/10/12 14:22      
                     Not at all.      Joseph Hebert      03/10/12 16:03      
                        Real manufacturers haven't found your idea simple...      Per Westermark      03/10/12 17:09      
                           Point made      Joseph Hebert      03/10/12 18:46      
                           Some of your points are just wrong      Justin Fontes      03/10/12 19:04      
                              Sounds like you expect an infinite acceleration      Per Westermark      03/11/12 06:49      
                                 Repeat post Ignore      Justin Fontes      03/11/12 11:39      
                                 I try for a constant power      Justin Fontes      03/11/12 11:52      
                                    Crank rpm - not back wheel rpm      Per Westermark      03/12/12 00:31      
                                       I got the two confused      Justin Fontes      03/12/12 10:37      
                                          Bandwidth + return channel      Per Westermark      03/12/12 12:07      
                        Oh dear, so many variable constants      Oliver Sedlacek      03/12/12 06:48      
                  rocket science      Maarten Brock      03/11/12 03:58      
                     So don't ignore them      Joseph Hebert      03/11/12 07:39      
                        Of course, it is...      Kai Klaas      03/11/12 08:18      
                           wireless      Joseph Hebert      03/11/12 08:36      
                              Costs...      Kai Klaas      03/11/12 12:59      
                                 cost      Joseph Hebert      03/11/12 13:39      
                                    Another problem      Joseph Hebert      03/12/12 21:14      
                                       This was addressed earlier      Justin Fontes      03/12/12 22:02      
                                       Multiple strain gauges      Per Westermark      03/13/12 00:53      
                                          Competitive bicycling      Justin Fontes      03/13/12 10:24      
                                             Pulse      Per Westermark      03/13/12 10:55      
                                                If I had the power meter      Justin Fontes      03/13/12 11:14      
                                                   Normalizing with heart beats cancels some errors      Per Westermark      03/13/12 12:39      
                                                      Just to get some data to look at      Jez Smith      03/15/12 03:37      
                                                         Jez ?      Steve M. Taylor      04/14/12 04:35      
                                                            Oh Noes!!!!!!      Jez Smith      04/14/12 10:58      
                                                            The plan is      Jez Smith      04/15/12 01:55      
                                                               Brum doesn't HAVE mountains      Steve M. Taylor      04/15/12 14:51      
                                                                  Ah yes but no but      Jez Smith      04/15/12 23:23      
                                                                  Actualy...      Jez Smith      04/15/12 23:35      
                                                   If I had a power meter...      Oliver Sedlacek      04/16/12 04:20      
                                                      Ive been testing things      Jez Smith      04/16/12 04:41      
                                                         Well, no      Steve M. Taylor      04/16/12 07:41      
                                                            all very well thank you Steve      Jez Smith      04/16/12 08:45      
                                                               Getting nasty      Steve M. Taylor      04/17/12 10:54      
                                                                  nasty ?      Jez Smith      04/20/12 12:09      
                                 More time than money if access to machinery      Per Westermark      03/12/12 00:57      
                                 Strain gauge elastic fixtures      Oliver Sedlacek      03/12/12 06:55      
                           Sure      Per Westermark      03/11/12 09:42      

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