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Richard Erlacher
03/18/12 13:15
Read: 432 times
Denver, Co
USA


 
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#186774 - Nothing. has been proven yet.
Responding to: Erik Malund's previous message
Erik Malund said:
<ui>Adding more capacitance between logic power and gnd will increase the rise and fall time of Vcc with respect to Gnd,
I know that you, with your supervisor chip avoidance, have a fixation with that I, like most others, DO NOT!!!

Erik


I don't know what you mean. I've experimented with supervisors of various sorts. I've also experimented with various sorts of regulators and power sources.

I've found that, in my own experience, those brownout bugaboos relating to program-store-content-loss that trouble the 805x community at large, don't make themselves apparent when the Vcc supply rise and fall times are very short. I don't deny that there are other brownout-related problems, but just hitting the RESET doesn't always solve those problems. Since there are different levels at which various devices perceive "out-of-spec" Vcc, the behaviors of MCU's, supervisors, BBRAM's, and other devices can be very hard to predict as Vcc wanders around the 4.5-volt level. Some devices will respond as though it's a brownout, while others will not. They don't all have the same hysteresis, either. I know the Dallas BBRAM's that I was using when I first encountered some of these anomalies don't behave in the same way as the Dallas MCU's built-in brownout detector does.

Additionally, I've observed that supervisors do absolutely nothing useful during the power-down transient, aside from activating the RESET. My argument is, once again, that nothing guarantees what happens when RESET is active but Vcc is below the acceptable level. Additionally, as I've pointed out, not all devices have a RESET input.

Many people think that a large capacitor will compensate for an under-specified raw input to the on-board regulator. Some think that additional capacitance on the output of their on-board regulator will solve the too-weak-input problem. I am not among them. Designing with a 20% margin of safety ijnto the raw input supply might be cheaper in the long run than adding extra Vcc-to-Gnd capacitance, and it causes no increase in Vcc rise and fall times.

While I'm forced by circumstance to respect the general opinion that a supervisor will, in general, make these problems "go away," I know that nobody has made the assertion that they've spent any time testing that notion. Consequntly it's just an unproven hypothesis.

I'm still convinced that the guys at Intel couldn't get their oscillator to start reliably, so they used a RESET time-constant long enough to convince their boss that it would start most of the time, rather than figuring out how to do it properly. The FLASH-corruption issue didn't come about until FLASH-based program store became a reality. This makes the supervisor look more like a fig-leaf rather than a solution. Maybe someone with a real motivation will actually spend the time and resources to perform rigorous testing on the function of the supervisor in this environment rather than allowing it to continue to float in the fog.

RE






List of 66 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Sine wave detection on microcontroller      Yagnesh Mehta      03/07/12 04:59      
   Detect or measure?      Per Westermark      03/07/12 05:25      
      not detection, measurement of sine wave signal      Yagnesh Mehta      03/07/12 06:14      
         What are you measuring?      Andy Peters      03/07/12 10:05      
            RMS and Average - 1st Priority      Yagnesh Mehta      03/07/12 20:59      
               415 v      Mahmood Elnasser      03/08/12 22:07      
                  I have to do using MCU      Yagnesh Mehta      03/08/12 22:48      
                     Start simple      Mahmood Elnasser      03/08/12 23:17      
                        if time is major isssue than.....      Yagnesh Mehta      03/08/12 23:31      
                           People responding to specific questions      Per Westermark      03/09/12 02:14      
                              Same Technique....      Yagnesh Mehta      03/09/12 04:32      
                                 RMS      Maarten Brock      03/09/12 05:49      
                                    Sorry for my laziness        Yagnesh Mehta      03/09/12 20:50      
                                 So what have you done?      Per Westermark      03/09/12 06:19      
                                    Require more work...      Yagnesh Mehta      03/10/12 00:50      
                                    Working on that      Yagnesh Mehta      03/10/12 06:12      
                                       options, options      Per Westermark      03/10/12 06:49      
   Help me      Yagnesh Mehta      03/08/12 21:31      
      Okay      Joseph Hebert      03/09/12 06:13      
         Are many threads available      Per Westermark      03/09/12 06:29      
      when you save a char ...        Erik Malund      03/09/12 08:09      
      Why don't you specify your problem COMPLETELY?      Richard Erlacher      03/09/12 11:36      
         Already specify it      Yagnesh Mehta      03/10/12 02:07      
            there are some details?      Richard Erlacher      03/10/12 07:51      
               comparisions      Yagnesh Mehta      03/12/12 01:16      
                  How are you calculating your needed sample rate?      Per Westermark      03/12/12 01:54      
                     start with simple one....      Yagnesh Mehta      03/12/12 08:02      
                        You do know sin(90+angle)? Or 2-log computations?      Per Westermark      03/12/12 08:48      
                           ADC resolution............      Yagnesh Mehta      03/12/12 12:27      
                              impossible or wrong      Erik Malund      03/12/12 13:30      
                              double post, ignore      Erik Malund      03/12/12 13:30      
                  Precision Rectify:      Erik Malund      03/12/12 06:44      
                     SCR Chopped Wave      Yagnesh Mehta      03/12/12 07:48      
                        What accuracy do you need?      Kalpak Dabir      03/12/12 08:43      
                           CT accuracy      Yagnesh Mehta      03/12/12 12:58      
                              the fundamental      Erik Malund      03/12/12 13:41      
                              50Hz      Per Westermark      03/12/12 14:27      
                              Precision rectifier is suitable for any waveform      Kalpak Dabir      03/13/12 01:47      
                                 are u sure??      Yagnesh Mehta      03/13/12 08:03      
                                    Depends      Per Westermark      03/13/12 09:08      
                                    must be severely bandwidth limited      Erik Malund      03/13/12 09:11      
                                       Maybe was circuit with top-voltage capacitor      Per Westermark      03/13/12 09:17      
                                       Sorry for confusion      Yagnesh Mehta      03/14/12 00:18      
                                          What accuracy do you need?      Kalpak Dabir      03/14/12 01:23      
                                             360/1024      Yagnesh Mehta      03/14/12 01:41      
                                                Not what he (or me) have asked      Per Westermark      03/14/12 04:39      
                                                   you are right....      Yagnesh Mehta      03/14/12 11:51      
                                                Do you believe you can protect your circuit from noise?      Richard Erlacher      03/14/12 08:19      
                                                   Very Noisy environment      Yagnesh Mehta      03/14/12 11:57      
                                                      re Very Noisy environment      Erik Malund      03/14/12 12:23      
                                                         Some of those rules are showing their age      Richard Erlacher      03/14/12 20:00      
                                                            here we go again      Erik Malund      03/15/12 08:15      
                                                               think about this for a minute      Richard Erlacher      03/15/12 17:10      
                                                                  when discussing a FAQ      Erik Malund      03/16/12 06:49      
                                                                     Well, when were those cap sizes determined?      Richard Erlacher      03/16/12 09:53      
                                                                        Technology      Per Westermark      03/16/12 10:13      
                                                                           Steady state currents do not need decaps      Kalpak Dabir      03/16/12 22:48      
                                                                              Often low capacitance so limited charge. But remember load.      Per Westermark      03/17/12 06:41      
                                                                        fixations      Erik Malund      03/16/12 10:40      
                                                                           Nothing. has been proven yet.      Richard Erlacher      03/18/12 13:15      
                                                                              once more for the peanut gallery      Erik Malund      03/19/12 07:23      
                                                                                 Where you sit determines what you see ...      Richard Erlacher      03/20/12 01:56      
                                                                                    Off-topic        Per Westermark      03/20/12 02:01      
                                                                                       difficult when ...      Erik Malund      03/20/12 06:59      
                                                                                       Yes ... I don't know how we got here either      Richard Erlacher      03/20/12 09:32      
                                                                                          i do      Erik Malund      03/20/12 09:45      

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