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Richard Erlacher
06/08/12 21:34
Read: 803 times
Denver, Co
USA


 
#187643 - Don't get me wrong, here ...
Responding to: Mahmood Elnasser's previous message
I'm very interested in these small instruments, though I like to compare them with the old analog ones that I use most often. The triggering has been a sore point for me for a long time since TEK gave up their superiority in that realm when they compromised on their own trigger circuits in order to compete with the somewhat cheaper ones that HP used so effectively.

The definition, IIRC, of "bandwidth" is actually "-3db bandwidth", i.e. the frequency at which the signal is attenuated 3 db by the input circuitry. That, of course, is only obvious when one is working with a pure sinusoid. A square wave will be distorted because of all the higher harmonics in its rising and falling edges but it will probably be recognizable. That distortion amounts largely to apparent loss of energy in the state changes as displayed.

I'd fear that, with a nominally 5 MHz bandwidth, if the manufacturer means the same thing as I described above, a 15 MHz square wave would look a lot more like an attenuated sinusoid. It frequency might still be recognizable, but its phase would be shifted. If your goal were to determine whether there's a signal there, and, perhaps guesstimate the frequency, well, it would be adequate. If, however, you wished to determine whether data was leading or lagging the clock edge, a common thing to examine, you'd likely be misled. The phase shift that appears on a data waveform would differ somewhat from the phase shift imposed on a regularly recurring clock, and, worse yet, the phase relationship between clock and data on a signal pair that allowed the clock duty cycle to vary considerably, as with some perfectly valid synchronous comm's, well, might look quite different on the display than it looks to the logic. That would give me pause.

What I'd recommend you investigate is how it displays the relationship between two stabile synchronized pulses, e.g. SPI or I2C clock and data, with known phase difference, as their data content varies. Compare the displayed waveform on this digital 'scope with what appears on that 475. Try it with two waveforms of identical frequency but known finite phase difference. See how it varies as frequency is varied up and down. If you have two signal generators with which you can phase-lock one to the other, and set the same sweep rate on both, try letting then sweep over a few different frequency ranges and observe what the difference, if there is any, between the old analog TEK 475 and the digital one. The 475, IIRC, is capable of sensing, displaying, and triggering on 20 mV signals and displaying down to 2 mV per division. See how that compares with the digital 'scope.

This should be very revealing, and, while none of these tests will prove the digital 'scope defective in any way, it will let you know when its display is "good enough" and when you really should be using the analog instrument. That may, in fact, never be the case.

RE








List of 74 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
DSO for cheap!      Joseph Hebert      05/11/12 13:35      
   very good      Mahmood Elnasser      05/11/12 14:14      
      Limitations      Joseph Hebert      05/12/12 09:49      
         test results      Mahmood Elnasser      05/12/12 12:46      
            That's valuable information      Joseph Hebert      05/12/12 13:30      
         well, the fact is ..      Richard Erlacher      06/03/12 11:43      
            tektronix 475 comparison      Mahmood Elnasser      06/07/12 10:37      
               Really? Why?      Richard Erlacher      06/07/12 14:51      
               another double post ... sorry      Richard Erlacher      06/07/12 14:51      
   I think ...      Erik Malund      05/11/12 14:34      
      Application dependant      Mahmood Elnasser      05/12/12 05:55      
         Indeed      Andy Neil      05/12/12 09:10      
            It's still too low a bandwidth, wouldn't you say?      Richard Erlacher      06/03/12 11:50      
   just curious, Joe could you try      Erik Malund      05/11/12 14:36      
      Unusual with short pulses for hobbyist projects      Per Westermark      05/11/12 14:53      
         is the clock running?      Erik Malund      05/11/12 16:01      
      Sorry, but no I can't.      Joseph Hebert      05/11/12 16:42      
      10nSec Pulse      Mahmood Elnasser      05/12/12 12:59      
         "at random" means what exactly ?      Jim Granville      05/13/12 18:41      
            Answers      Mahmood Elnasser      05/14/12 07:41      
               more observations      Mahmood Elnasser      06/03/12 10:51      
                  It may not be the sample rate ...      Richard Erlacher      06/07/12 15:07      
                     digital vs analog      Mahmood Elnasser      06/08/12 15:34      
                        Don't get me wrong, here ...      Richard Erlacher      06/08/12 21:34      
                           poor mans's scope      Mahmood Elnasser      06/09/12 02:01      
                              Doesn't it depend on what THEY mean by bandwidth?      Richard Erlacher      06/09/12 20:58      
                                 20 nsec steps      Mahmood Elnasser      06/09/12 23:08      
                                    Well, one thing at a time ...      Richard Erlacher      06/10/12 11:43      
                                    Impulse Tests are better      Jim Granville      06/10/12 16:49      
                                       more capable scope      Mahmood Elnasser      06/11/12 14:03      
                                          I must have missed a step ...      Richard Erlacher      06/12/12 08:07      
                                             TEK475      Mahmood Elnasser      06/12/12 16:16      
                                                here's another alternative ...      Richard Erlacher      06/12/12 22:16      
                                                   DAC and pot in parallel?      Per Westermark      06/13/12 01:07      
                                                      Logically, not physically      Richard Erlacher      06/13/12 07:57      
                                                   new theory      Mahmood Elnasser      06/14/12 00:57      
   3MHz is rather poor Bandwidth ?      Jim Granville      05/11/12 16:51      
      ordinary      Erik Malund      05/11/12 17:20      
         Ther are many params needed      Jim Granville      05/11/12 18:21      
   "only" $200 ?      Andy Neil      05/11/12 23:59      
      Low cost oscilloscopes      Andy Neil      05/12/12 09:18      
         291 > 2*($199)      Joseph Hebert      05/12/12 09:45      
            It doesn't always work that way      Andy Neil      05/12/12 10:48      
               Once upon a time ...      Joseph Hebert      05/12/12 13:28      
   SDS8202      Mahmood Elnasser      06/14/12 13:58      
      Read all the "fine print' first ... and ask any questions      Richard Erlacher      06/14/12 20:31      
         bought it      Mahmood Elnasser      06/16/12 03:07      
            Please let us know how this works out for you      Richard Erlacher      06/16/12 04:19      
               datasheet      Mahmood Elnasser      06/16/12 05:26      
                  2mV/div - but min trig level?      Per Westermark      06/16/12 07:01      
                     Tests      Mahmood Elnasser      06/16/12 09:55      
                        24ns      Per Westermark      06/16/12 11:09      
                           and that's the crux      Erik Malund      06/16/12 11:41      
                              FPGA pulse Expander (edited)      Mahmood Elnasser      06/16/12 12:06      
                                 some love the mother, some love the daughter        Erik Malund      06/16/12 12:13      
                                 Here's omne fairly simple thing ...      Richard Erlacher      06/16/12 15:22      
                                 self calibtrate?      Jim Granville      06/16/12 20:42      
                                    interesting      Mahmood Elnasser      06/16/12 23:01      
                                       yes      Jim Granville      06/16/12 23:15      
                                          glurk      Jez Smith      06/17/12 13:33      
                                             DCMs      Mahmood Elnasser      06/17/12 14:49      
                                                Well....      Jez Smith      06/17/12 15:48      
                                                   I don't know where you're going with this ...      Richard Erlacher      06/17/12 21:25      
                                             xxxxx      Mahmood Elnasser      06/20/12 12:53      
                           333ps      Mahmood Elnasser      06/18/12 00:59      
      SDS9302      Mahmood Elnasser      07/05/12 10:32      
         So, how are you exercising this new 'scope?      Richard Erlacher      07/05/12 10:53      
            so far so good      Mahmood Elnasser      07/08/12 09:45      
               So far so good ...      Richard Erlacher      07/08/12 10:49      
                  rise time      Mahmood Elnasser      08/15/12 13:28      
                     The rise time indicates that high frequencies gets dampened      Per Westermark      08/15/12 16:26      
                     What does "bandwidth" mean?      Richard Erlacher      08/15/12 17:45      
                        good test      Mahmood Elnasser      08/30/12 15:09      
                           Perhaps you should repeat the test ...       Richard Erlacher      08/30/12 23:08      

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