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Per Westermark
09/11/12 00:03
Read: 664 times
Sweden


 
#188304 - Calibration + redundant force-limitation
Responding to: Richard Erlacher's previous message
With a reasonably sensitive contact pressure sensor, you can pick up a sensor value just after having made initial contact (so a small measurement error before the sensor is sure it has contact) and then continue to move the probe down until the sensor reaches the force limit.

An issue here with an automatic device is that if there is a problem with the contact pressure sensor, the system will continue to push down so there must be a second set of mechanics that limits the amount of force available. That is very very hard to do when you have multiple sensor probes concurrently pressed to the skin unless each probe both have a contact pressure sensor for detection and some engage mechanics that have hard limits for how hard the pin may move forward (like a spring or similar). Your individual pins are very small, so even very low forces can do damage.

Another issue is that multiple contact pressure sensors will not be identically sensitive. So in soft tissue, there can probably be significant differences in how far you can press the individual probe pins before the system decides the required force has been reached. So there must be a way to calibrate each sensor tip.

One option for the mechanics would be pneumatics. With a fixed air pressure used to drive all measurement pins forward, you know exactly what force each sensor pin may push forward with before reaching equilibrium. So you wouldn't even need a contact pressure sensor to decide when to stop - just some sensor to decide when the measurement pin makes initial contact with the skin. And of course a sensor that measures how far it has been pushed out by the pneumatics. The skin contact could potentially be capacitive when it's enough to just know "touches skin" and the need to know how hard has been removed.

But still consider the manual route - one trick used there often is to project an optical grid on a surface. An operator can very quickly press a probe to each grid point. It isn't unreasonable that an operator with a single probe may be just as fast as an automatic contraption with 20 concurrent probes just because of the dexterity of our hands and our ability to quickly switch between high movement speed and great precision.

List of 49 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
How would you do this?      Richard Erlacher      09/10/12 10:30      
   I have no idea if this would work, but ....      Erik Malund      09/10/12 10:32      
      How would one actuate them?      Richard Erlacher      09/10/12 12:29      
   strain guage      Mahmood Elnasser      09/10/12 11:03      
      Yes, you might be onto something.      Richard Erlacher      09/10/12 12:49      
         Computer-controlled?      Per Westermark      09/10/12 16:37      
            computer controlled      Richard Erlacher      09/10/12 19:52      
               Calibration + redundant force-limitation      Per Westermark      09/11/12 00:03      
               Interesting problem      Jim Granville      09/13/12 15:06      
                  Yes, it seemed coarse, at first.      Richard Erlacher      09/13/12 17:08      
                     Precision is cheap ?      Jim Granville      09/14/12 15:15      
                        I don't follow ...       Richard Erlacher      09/15/12 09:59      
                           Precision      Jim Granville      09/15/12 19:09      
                              other considerations      Richard Erlacher      09/15/12 20:15      
         Tomographic imaging?      Christoph Franck      09/11/12 04:47      
            There's one major problem ... maybe two ...      Richard Erlacher      09/11/12 09:20      
               $100 MRI unit      Erik Malund      09/11/12 09:31      
                  I'm not sure ...       Richard Erlacher      09/12/12 09:57      
         Voice coil and LVDT?      Oliver Sedlacek      09/12/12 02:37      
            Not having a lot of experience with this sort of stuff ...      Richard Erlacher      09/12/12 10:07      
               Danger/problems with hydraulic since no spring effect      Per Westermark      09/12/12 13:55      
                  A few things puzzle me with this approach      Richard Erlacher      09/13/12 02:07      
   Ultra Sound Probing      Michael Karas      09/10/12 16:36      
      Ultra-sound is better for measuring surface or sub-surface      Per Westermark      09/10/12 16:39      
   I would not use volumetric imaging      Justin Fontes      09/13/12 11:05      
      I'm not sure what you mean      Richard Erlacher      09/13/12 16:59      
         another thought      Rick Gebhardt      09/17/12 13:43      
            I consider that one of the more "pregnant" approaches      Richard Erlacher      09/17/12 15:25      
               Lots of options available      Per Westermark      09/17/12 16:14      
                  You've got to consider cost      Richard Erlacher      09/18/12 16:50      
                     Cost/safety      Per Westermark      09/18/12 18:29      
                     Cost target?      Oliver Sedlacek      09/21/12 08:37      
                        The price target comes from a few prosthetists      Richard Erlacher      09/21/12 21:46      
   comercial CMM      Mahmood Elnasser      09/17/12 13:58      
      This only received cursory examination       Richard Erlacher      09/17/12 15:28      
         pneumatic actuator      Rick Gebhardt      09/17/12 20:14      
            Yes ... but what would this cost?      Richard Erlacher      09/17/12 23:30      
               100 rods?      Per Westermark      09/18/12 02:04      
                  Patient size ...      Christoph Franck      09/18/12 06:12      
                     That's what I'm considering      Richard Erlacher      09/18/12 07:50      
                     AAACK! ... another double post ...       Richard Erlacher      09/18/12 07:50      
                  it's not as big as you think!      Richard Erlacher      09/18/12 07:40      
                     90% coverage      Maarten Brock      09/19/12 03:47      
                        So maybe vacuum pump for the too fat people      Per Westermark      09/19/12 06:38      
   I do not know if this is relevant, but      Erik Malund      09/19/12 07:52      
      I'll have to look into this.      Richard Erlacher      09/19/12 09:13      
         Single air pressure sensor sensor for tip force guestimate      Per Westermark      09/19/12 11:27      
   What about infrared?      Marshall Brown      09/21/12 03:03      
      How would you do this so it would retail for under $5k      Richard Erlacher      09/21/12 08:21      

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